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Off topic: Clichés, anyone? (1) "I shall not rest" (2) "tireless/tirelessly"
Thread poster: Mervyn Henderson (X)
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:24
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Unlikely May 10, 2014

Why did Americans start saying "likely" instead of probably? It's so **UGLY**!

**I AM COMMITTED TO** stamping out this misuse of the English language.


 
neilmac
neilmac
Spain
Local time: 01:24
Spanish to English
+ ...
Editing is disabled after 24 hours... May 10, 2014

So I'll add this PS here: further to my comment that "brevity may not always be the best policy", I just found myself adding "- scale" to "large rabbit farm" (large-scale rabbit farm), simply because I think it looks/feels/sounds somehow "better" in the context. I can't explain why really (unless they have something against smaller or medium-sized rabbits), but it just does.

[Edited at 2014-05-10 08:13 GMT]


 
Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 01:24
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Tom ... May 10, 2014

... "likely" is not so much US, I think. What's the difference between "likelihood" and "probability"? Plus, you have all the "likely" possibilities such as "Revenue will likely increase ...", as apposed to "Revenue will probably increase ...". Doesn't the latter sound a little please-God-it-will, whereas the former is more upbeat, certainly the tone they're looking for in annual accounts? And, as you have said on other forums, you find architecture/construction easy, but annual accounts are not... See more
... "likely" is not so much US, I think. What's the difference between "likelihood" and "probability"? Plus, you have all the "likely" possibilities such as "Revenue will likely increase ...", as apposed to "Revenue will probably increase ...". Doesn't the latter sound a little please-God-it-will, whereas the former is more upbeat, certainly the tone they're looking for in annual accounts? And, as you have said on other forums, you find architecture/construction easy, but annual accounts are not your thang (hey, neilmac - yes, thang).

Mervyn
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Oliver Walter
Oliver Walter  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:24
German to English
+ ...
From German? May 10, 2014

Tom in London wrote:
Why did Americans start saying "likely" instead of probably? It's so **UGLY**!

Perhaps the influence of German-speaking immigrants, since German doesn't distinguish adverbs (probably) from adjectives (likely) in the way that English does. Both these words would be "wahrscheinlich" in German. "Wahrscheinlich kommt er morgen" = "He'll probably come tomorrow"; "Seine Ankunft morgen ist wahrscheinlich" = "His arrival tomorrow is likely [or probable]."
Oliver

[Edited at 2014-05-10 19:02 GMT]


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:24
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Recent May 10, 2014

Oliver Walter wrote:

Perhaps the influence of German-speaking immigrants


I don't think so. It's only recently that they've started misusing "likely" as an adverb instead of "probably". "Likely" is more commonly used as an adjective.

Example: it's not likely that I'll be home before eight. I'll probably be home by nine.

Bad: it's not likely that I'll be home before eight. I'll likely be home by nine.

How ugly is that? It's *likely* not wrong, but by God it's nasty. Its probably not wrong would be better. BUt hey, there are a lot of people out there who don't care, or who try to get things said as quickly as possible, and "probably" has a whole extra syllable you have to get through !

[Edited at 2014-05-10 19:44 GMT]


 
Tôm M (X)
Tôm M (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:24
'by God it's nasty' May 10, 2014

Tom in London wrote:
Its probably not wrong would be better. BUt hey [Edited at 2014-05-10 19:44 GMT]


Now go and look up the definition of likely (adv.) in an Oxford dictionary.


 
Tôm M (X)
Tôm M (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:24
The most tiresome cliché of all May 10, 2014

I vote for (usually middle-aged or older) men (yes, usually men) who drone endlessly about 'young people these days'.

It's no less tedious than your parents' and grandparents' moans about your generation's use of language.


 
Giles Watson
Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 01:24
Italian to English
In memoriam
Likliche May 11, 2014

Tom in London wrote:

I don't think so. It's only recently that they've started misusing "likely" as an adverb instead of "probably". "Likely" is more commonly used as an adjective.



Not quite, Tom.

The OED cites a steady stream of adverbial "likelys" from c.1380 (Wyclif, who spelled it "Likliche") down to the present day, including one "likeliest" dating from 1683.

I wouldn't want to read too much into this but the OED's last example of this usage in the British Isles is from 1895. All the subsequent instances are from North America. The good book also points out - rightly - that the usage is still alive and well in Scotland and other parts of the Anglosphere.

Very likely (if you'll forgive me the disjunct), this is a case of South British English discarding an idiom that continues to thrive in many other dialects.


 
Suzan Hamer
Suzan Hamer  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 01:24
English
+ ...
Yes, I agree, Neil. May 11, 2014

neilmac wrote:

So I'll add this PS here: further to my comment that "brevity may not always be the best policy", I just found myself adding "- scale" to "large rabbit farm" (large-scale rabbit farm), simply because I think it looks/feels/sounds somehow "better" in the context. I can't explain why really (unless they have something against smaller or medium-sized rabbits), but it just does.

[Edited at 2014-05-10 08:13 GMT]


When editing we may add a word or words, to aid rhythm or flow... Or just because, as you say, it seems somehow better in the context. That is part of knack of editing and writing. Knowing when such words are an improvement. (And I would say that here you HAD to make clear that you were talking about the size of farm not rabbit.)

I thought we were talking about clichés in speaking, or speaking in clichés. Rarely is it necessary for rhythm, flow or anything else to SAY "daily basis" (for example). "I eat breakfast on a daily basis." It's that kind of usage that I find irritating...


 
JaneTranslates
JaneTranslates  Identity Verified
Puerto Rico
Local time: 20:24
Spanish to English
+ ...
Actividad de lluvia May 11, 2014

I don't know about the rest of the Spanish-speaking world, but here in Puerto Rico our TV weatherpeople never speak of rain (lluvia). It's always "rain activity" (actividad de lluvia). Why?

Texte Style cited the French phrase "au jour d'aujourd'hui"; we have the same thing in Spanish: "al día de hoy." At least it's a tad shorter than the French version! I've seen "as of today's date" in English--not exactly the same, but close.

Turning to English, I would cheerfully je
... See more
I don't know about the rest of the Spanish-speaking world, but here in Puerto Rico our TV weatherpeople never speak of rain (lluvia). It's always "rain activity" (actividad de lluvia). Why?

Texte Style cited the French phrase "au jour d'aujourd'hui"; we have the same thing in Spanish: "al día de hoy." At least it's a tad shorter than the French version! I've seen "as of today's date" in English--not exactly the same, but close.

Turning to English, I would cheerfully jettison "moment in time," often stretched out to "at this particular moment in time." It's similar to Mervyn's "point in time" but even more pretentious, in my view.

Another unfavorite is "on the same page." Like "thinking outside the box," it was once a clever coinage. We're kinda past that moment in time, ya know?
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Rachel Fell
Rachel Fell  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:24
French to English
+ ...
Hmm May 12, 2014

"moving forward" used to mean "in future", etc., is frequently heard but pretty awful to my ears;
"passion" is all over the place, and lots of "professionals" have it;
I've noticed politicians consciously avoiding the term "hard-working" in recent months on the radio;
I normally understand "presently" to mean "soon" or "in a while", but in the US it's used, and lately in the UK it's being used, in a different way;
"likely" is used differently in the US from the UK, and it
... See more
"moving forward" used to mean "in future", etc., is frequently heard but pretty awful to my ears;
"passion" is all over the place, and lots of "professionals" have it;
I've noticed politicians consciously avoiding the term "hard-working" in recent months on the radio;
I normally understand "presently" to mean "soon" or "in a while", but in the US it's used, and lately in the UK it's being used, in a different way;
"likely" is used differently in the US from the UK, and it does seem like from a previous era.
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Giles Watson
Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 01:24
Italian to English
In memoriam
Presently May 12, 2014

Rachel Fell wrote:

I normally understand "presently" to mean "soon" or "in a while", but in the US it's used, and lately in the UK it's being used, in a different way;
"likely" is used differently in the US from the UK, and it does seem like from a previous era.



Both Chambers (obs. or Scot. and US) and the OED (Brit. regional and rare) flag up the dialect distinction while Webster's classes the use of "presently" in the sense of "immediately" as "archaic".

The OED even has a marvellous quotation from a 1902 edition of the Yorkshire Post about a "lady from the South of England" who married a "man who was born on Tyneside". Apparently, the couple used "the common word presently in entirely opposite senses. Neither of them was in any doubt as to the meaning of the word, but he said ‘presently’ when he meant ‘now, at once, immediately’".

As in the case of the adverbial use of "likely", history supports the Tynesider. The OED's first written occurrence of "presently" in the - quite logical - sense of "at present" dates from 1385.

[Edited at 2014-05-12 06:30 GMT]


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 08:24
Chinese to English
A cliche a day keeps the clients at bay May 12, 2014

neilmac wrote:

No, seriously, I get the drift of the post, but I do feel that there is a still place for cliché, especially if used judiciously.


I kind of agree with this. In fact, sometimes there can be a subtle pressure from clients: if you manage to work a cliche into the translation, they think, "How idiomatic!" That's translator brownie points.

There's a nice technical challenge in my pair: good Chinese style basically consists of stringing together cliches in context-appropriate ways. Where in English we might be impressed by a writer with a wide vocabulary, who chooses just the right word, in Chinese they're impressed by a writer with a large store of cliches, who uses just the right well-known-phrase-or-saying. In front of me right now I have a shortish sentence, 40 characters (usually ~25 words), with three of these little beauties in it. If you can find stock phrases in English to match, you could use them - but pack so many together into one sentence and you sound like a Daily Mail copywriter. If you innovate, you risk losing the style of the original altogether. It's a conundrum.


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 01:24
French to English
A cliche a day keeps the clients at bay May 12, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:
A cliche a day keeps the clients at bay


Brilliant! That just about sums it up!

This is the beauty of cliché, you can then twist it to suit your own purpose and people will understand more readily what you are saying.


 
George Hopkins
George Hopkins
Local time: 01:24
Swedish to English
Out there... May 12, 2014

I mean, to be frank, where is out there?

 
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