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réponse de jésuite
faire du droit
May 21, 2020 11:43
3 yrs ago
46 viewers *
français term

ramené

français vers anglais Affaires / Finance Immobilier
Property valuation, flat in upmarket area of Paris.

"EVALUATION.

CONCLUSION.

Compte tenu d'une part, des caractéristiques, de la localisation du bien étudié, et d'autre part, du marché immobilier considéré et des références relevées, la méthode d'évaluation par "comparaison directe" nous conduit à proposer, une valeur comprise entre :

I) Appartement avec le stationnement
1.444.444 Euros et 1.888.888 Euros.
(Fourchette de prix actualisée et ramenée entre 12.888 € et 13.111 € le m2)"

What (on Earth) might they mean by "ramené" here?

Bearing in mind that estate agents/valuers choose their words very carefully at this point in their valuations. So I think the concept of "reduced" is unlikely to be meant: sounds too negative, might frighten the seller, etc. And also doesn't seem to fit the context.
Proposed translations (anglais)
4 which comes out / down to
4 +2 amounting/equating to (betwen)
4 +2 corresponding to
3 +1 narrowed down to
3 -2 reduced

Discussion

Mpoma (asker) May 26, 2020:
@TonyM I never felt it could be "reduced". The suggestion from ph-b is "narrowed down to between". I'm fairly sure ph-b and François Boye have interpreted the expression as per this EN expression. But you are very convincing. I just wish another French-speaker could endorse this (and rule out "narrowed down").
Tony M May 26, 2020:
@ Asker I see this term used a great deal in this way in technical contexts, where it generally has something of the sense of 'which comes down to...', which I think is the underlying notion here; it is used a lot in things with equations or ratios or proportions, or things where one type of dimension is being compared to another.
As for that 'actualisé', I remain convinced that this latest valuation for the property as a whole means that it now comes into a different bracket per m² — let's face it, the price / m² is calculated backwards from the overall price, NOT the reverse. So if the current valuation (which must in some way relate to a previous one, even if that was decades ago!) has increased (perhaps), then the resulting price / m² will come out at a different figure ... but is fairly unlikely to have been 'reduced' in any way!
I think the reason the native FR speakers are having trouble with the expression in EN is simply this slightly divergent way of looking at things.
Mpoma (asker) May 26, 2020:
Yes.... @TonyM yes, I agree with your reasoning. It's funny how the two French native-speakers who have contributed to this question have been so sure about "narrowed down". I have a slight counter-reasoning to your reasoning (though nowhere as strong): if "ramené" is just the idea of "calculating as per price per m2", why put "actualisé" before it? Also, on this comprehensive page of definitions (https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/ramener ) I can see no sign either of your meaning... but nor for that matter of "ramener entre" (at all).
AllegroTrans May 22, 2020:
agree 100 pc with Tony And I also see no sense in 'narrowed down' here, which sounds wrong in the context; the text simply states the price per sq. metre bracket - this isn't "narrowed down" it simply is
Tony M May 22, 2020:
@ Asker What no-one has really addressed here is the fact that the first figures described are their valuation of the property as a whole; while the second figures merely describe the price bracket in which it falls, as expressed in € / m². Hence why we might understand 'ramené' as meaning something like 'which works out at' — it is very often used in this sense in mathematical type contexts, like '€ X for the whole batch, which works out at €y each'

My feeling about 'actualisé' is that this new valuation perhaps brings it into a different 'fourchette' from that in which it had previously been valued.
ph-b (X) May 22, 2020:
"How can you make that claim?" Err... not sure, actually. Was it past my usual bedtime? Have to think about it, so ignore it for the time being. While on the subject, please read "I've no idea whether an estate agent..." in my answer. As for the rest, I stand by what I said in the discussion and my answer. Have a good weekend, and this time for good; off to enjoy le déconfinement one week late.
ph-b (X) May 21, 2020:
le comportement humain ramené à gnagnagna You made that one up - not me! Hehe. That isn't the p p of se ramener. As for ramener entre not cropping up, I'm not surpised: as mentioned above, this is an elliptic turn of phrase and not the most felicitous either... Try the ramener à un chiffre compris entre... version. Have a good weekend!
Mpoma (asker) May 21, 2020:
Disagree to disagree? "their p p can't be used independently" ... le comportement humain ramené à gnagnagna.... How can you make that claim?

But I'm convinced enough about "narrow down" to adopt this choice and put a note in for the client.

Conversely I just spent a few minutes looking for how "narrow down" is normally translated to French: ramener entre didn't crop up once. Nor can I find this expression in any online French monolingual dictionaries. However, Linguee does show some evidence of what looks like such usage (i.e. in the source): https://www.linguee.com/french-english/translation/ramené en...

Also you and François Boye, native speakers, are clearly sure. That's a powerful argument.
ph-b (X) May 21, 2020:
Grammar point (2) "There is no way to indicate, with an isolated past participle," Yes, there is. The auxiliary used with reflexive verbs is être and being reflexive verbs, their p p can't be used independently. Here you would have s'étant ramenée, which would be meaningless.<p>Please note I never said this is sloppy grammar. What I'm saying is that what this grammatically-correct sentence is saying is misunderstood according to me and that the risk is high that the translation will not be precise enough at best, or inaccurate at worst.<p>As for the missing à, this is because there are two figures here. À would be used with one figure only, whereas you need to have entre with two figures: ramenée à 10,000€ vs. ramenée (à un chiffre compris) entre 8,000€ et 12,000€. I agree the elliptic version is not the best French I've seen, and that may be the initial reason for your question, but that's what we have to deal with.<p>Edit: I've given up on paragraphs - no longer working here!
Mpoma (asker) May 21, 2020:
Grammar point As I say, there is no reference whatsoever to a previous valuation, and having done these things a lot I would be alert to signs that anything, anything at all, was "with reference to" something else. Which doesn't of course totally rule out the possibility that this is the sole point in the document which indicates your scenario.

Concerning your grammar point: this is the example in the Trésor: "Tout le comportement humain se ramène-t-il, en fin de compte, à des réflexes conditionnés?". Here the agency is, from a technical grammar PoV, "le comportement humain". But in reality the agent is the person holding such a view. After the "process" has taken place we are left with "boiled down" comportement humain. It doesn't matter who did the boiling. It is then "comportement humain ramené". There is no way to indicate, with an isolated past participle with no auxiliary verb, whether the agent which left it in that state was itself or something else.

And if you consider this to be sloppy grammar (I don't), what about the fact that in the text "ramenée" is not followed by "à"? "Ramenée entre...": inelegant to the point of incoherence. For me this is just a case of estate-agent-ese.
ph-b (X) May 21, 2020:
" 'boils downs to' fits perfectly with 'se ramener à' in the 3rd meaning there"

Please note that the verb has this meaning when its reflexive form is used (3. Empl. pronom. Se réduire.). It is not used like that in your text: la fourchette de prix ne se ramène pas à… Elle est ramenée à… That, to me, makes a difference: it doesn’t boil down to, but is reduced to.

Writing this, I realise, however, that one other possible meaning here is that the scope of the band has been “narrowed down to”, say from between 10.000€ and 15.000 to 12.888 € and 13.111 €.

PS Sorry for the edits, but that <p> tag no longer works here.
ph-b (X) May 21, 2020:
...les juges ont validé le redressement notifié à un marchand de biens, qui avait vendu une maison 580 000€ alors que sa valeur vénale était de 1 296 000€. Ils ont toutefois ramené celle-ci à 1 000 000€, car la maison exigeait... (http://leparticulier.lefigaro.fr/jcms/p1_1412208/la-valeur-v...Devant le Tribunal Administratif..., la valorisation était ramenée à 100 % de la moyenne annuelle des recettes (https://www.parabellum.pro/Premiere-fixation-jurisprudentiel......la valeur de l'usufruit a été ramenée à 632 993 €... (https://www.actu-juridique.fr/fiscalite/fiscal-finances/usuf...
ph-b (X) May 21, 2020:
Agree with Tony and his "previously". Why the valuation is described as actualisée ("current" vs. ?) is part of the answer to Mpoma's question.
Tony M May 21, 2020:
actualisé I think it just means that this is their current valuation, which puts the value / m² into this new bracket (perhaps it was previously stated in some other bracket?)
Mpoma (asker) May 21, 2020:
@ph-b Absolutely no suggestion that it's anything other than a bog-standard first valuation.

Again with my idea of vacuousness, "actualisé" could just mean "non-périmé", i.e. "I really have done my sums and not just guessed, honest ...". Most valuers will be aware that the first thing any vendor does on receiving a valuation is jump straight to the figures at the end. So I'm suggesting a slightly fastidious, nervous register, probably intended to instil confidence.
ph-b (X) May 21, 2020:
I understand ramené to mean "reduced to" : évaluation a été actualisée et [ensuite/en conséquence ?] ramenée [réduite] à... Any indication in your text explaining why the evaluation was reassessed? Has anything happened to the property, its location, or even to the sellers, e.g. sthg which would make them opt for a fast sale and so lower the price? This actualisation is intriguing. PS to add "reduced to" = my understanding of the sentence, but may not be the right word to use in the translation itself.
Mpoma (asker) May 21, 2020:
"in the final analysis" I think it could be as vacuous as that. Speaking of estate agents...
Mpoma (asker) May 21, 2020:
Definitions I think it has quite a few slippery meanings, some tangential only to a concept of "reduce". The best way to think about it, I feel, is "re + amener". One good place to look is Trésor de La Langue Française: http://stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/visusel.exe?11... .... => scroll down a bit to "III. Au fig." ... A: the 3 meanings under that.

Ormiston's excellent idea of "boils downs to" fits perfectly with "se ramener à" in the 3rd meaning there. But a valuer would not say "the price boils down to", so something more formal/pompous has to be found.
AllegroTrans May 21, 2020:
@ PHIL it doesn't always mean "reduced/reducing" according to my dictionary
philgoddard May 21, 2020:
Surely it means reduced: http://dictionary.reverso.net/french-english/ramener
It's a simple statement of fact, so whether it frightens the seller is neither here nor there.

Proposed translations

23 minutes
Selected

which comes out / down to

It's just not a way we'd express this idea in EN, but that's essentially what it means in this and so many other contexts — think of the basic notion of 'brought to...'
Of course, you'll need to completely re-formulate it in EN, to make it sound natural!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 days (2020-06-03 10:05:36 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

It's not surprising, they are led astray by this faux ami of 'reduce' — which is after all the ultimate sense of 'boils down to', which is the sense here — and it very often found in technical, mathematical contexts where we would less often expect to find 'reduce' in EN — one example might be in the simplification of equations.
Note from asker:
Thanks. This makes sense.
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3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Still in some doubt about this, due to our Francophone colleagues' convictions."
+2
1 heure
français term (edited): ramené (entre)

amounting/equating to (betwen)

Tony has the right idea, but mayble this expresses it more naturally

Search Results
Web results

Home prices drop 14.2 pct in September | Macau Business
www.macaubusiness.com › home-prices-drop-14-2-pct-in...
1 Nov 2015 - The Peninsula is the cheapest area in the territory to acquire a home, with the average price per square metre amounting to MOP80,993.

pv international by Zoran Vodopija - issuu
issuu.com › vinskaprica.com › docs › pvi-124
4 Oct 2010 - Zadar, on the other hand, recorded an increase by 0.2%, or € 3, the price per square metre amounting to €1,645. In Pula, real estate prices ...
Note from asker:
Thanks, yes, very much the idea, I think. Ormiston's "boils down to" fits will with the def. in Trésor de la langue française, see discussion.
Peer comment(s):
agree ormiston : With the underlying idea of 'boiling down to'
13 minutes
thanks
agree Paulina Sobelman
50 minutes
Yes of course, my typo, thanks
agree Tony M : Yes, that's the way to express it properly — I was only seeking to convey the underlying idea.
1 heure
thanks
disagree Francois Boye : ramené (entre) =narrowed down
5 heures
I don't see anyhting being "narrowed down" here - just what the resulting price per m2 amounts to
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+2
2 heures

corresponding to

Hello
I don't like "amounting to" as there is no cumulation of sums while it is much harder to make a call between "equating to and my suggestion. But I have a feeling English speakers would normally use "corresponding to".
Peer comment(s):
agree AllegroTrans : OK but there doesn't need to be a cumulation/calculation to use "amounting to" - the word just is effectively saying "the amount is X" - please see the 2 examples within my answer box
8 heures
thanks and noted
agree GILLES MEUNIER
3 jours 15 heures
Thanks Gilou
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+1
5 heures
français term (edited): ramenée

narrowed down to


The valuation has been reassessed (actualisée) for whatever reason, which led to the range of the estimate being narrowed down to between 12,888 € and 13,111 €.

ramener à : 3. Réduire à un état élémentaire ou plus simple ; diminuer... Ramener l’escompte de dix à huit pour cent.
https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9R0389>

The verb "reduce" may not sound right for a range (band?) of prices, but "narrow down" could work to reflect the fact that because of the reassessment, the valuer has been able to make a more precise estimate, not to "reduce" as such, but to "narrow down" the scope of the range of prices.

I've no idea if an estate agent would use this term, but this to me is the scenario described by the French phrase Fourchette de prix actualisée et ramenée entre 12.888 € et 13.111 € le m2

Some examples in the context of valuations:

A Practical Guide to Business Valuations for SMEsbooks.google.fr › books- Traduire cette page
The value range obtained from the initial calculations can be narrowed down. The value range identified can be further analysed to calculate a spot figure.


Value Investing in Asia: The Definitive Guide to Investing ...books.google.fr › books- Traduire cette page
... a valuation exercise, we believe that at best valuation can be narrowed down to ... control the risk of investing by having a safety gap between the market price ...

books.google.fr › books- Traduire cette page
Theoretical overview - The most important valuation models - What models to use? ... to point out that 'value' varies from being a range to a very specific number. ... however, the valuation had been narrowed down to exactly $31 per share or ...
David Frykman, ‎Jakob Tolleryd - 2012 - ‎Business & Economics
Peir Shenq (Stanley) Lim, ‎Mun Hong Cheong - 2017 - ‎Business & Economics

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2020-05-21 17:43:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Read: "the French sentence"
Note from asker:
I've just seen this answer ... and I find it more convincing than your example from a court case in the discussion thread (where the price is "ramené"/"reduced"). Interesting too that both you and François Boye, as native French speakers, share this interpretation.
Peer comment(s):
agree Francois Boye
1 heure
neutral AllegroTrans : I don't see anything being "narrowed down"
3 jours 6 heures
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-2
8 heures

reduced

In this sense among prices, 'ramener à' means 'to reduce to'. The quote from the example above states 'rameneé entre', referring to 'la fourchette', which is the price range.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 46 mins (2020-05-22 12:30:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

May I suggest that 'ramené' could mean 'narrowed down to' or 'reduced', perhaps even 'brought back'. When considering the context above, one can see that 'ramenée' (feminine singular past participle of the verb 'ramener' (to bring back) is used to describe 'la fourchette' which is 'the range' (of prices).
Example sentence:

La fourchette de prix est actualisée et ramenée entre ...euros et ....euros le metre carré.

The price range is updated (reviewed) and reduced to be between .... euros and ...euros per squared metre.

Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : Although 'ramener' can have a sense of 'reduce' in some contexts, that wouldn't really make any sense here. No, because where figures are involved, using 'reduced' suggests a discount, reduced price etc. 'comes down/out / amounts to' are the right sense
22 minutes
If it means 'which comes down to' as you suggested, that would mean the same as 'reduced'. If it means 'which comes out' that's not exactly the same.
disagree AllegroTrans : I see nothing about reduction in the source text
3 jours 3 heures
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