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This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
Feb 20, 2017 15:50
7 yrs ago
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French term

Grotte de Thaïs ou Taï?

French to English Marketing Tourism & Travel
Context (all I have- I am translating captions for a brochure about the grotte de Thaïs in France):
Grotte de Thaïs ou Taï? Un mystère partagé entre romance et patois.

The question is obviously referring to the correct name/ etymology of the cave and I have found a few references to Tai being a local species of badger but I'm not sure how to translate the question.

Any thoughts on this?
The Thaïs cave or the cave of the Taï badger?

Thanks for your help!
Proposed translations (English)
5 Grotte de Thaïs
4 They are two different "grottes", the 2nd is in the Gard
Change log

Feb 20, 2017 15:51: Penny Lynch changed "Field (write-in)" from "Emergency response" to "(none)"

Discussion

Nikki Scott-Despaigne Feb 21, 2017:
As a proper noun, I would not even translate "Grotte". There are EN websites referring to it with the full French name. Any English speaker will realise that it is a cave, as there is not much guesswork neeeded to get from "Grotte" to "Grotto" thus cave. ;-) When describing them in the body of a text, you could use "cave", in other words in inastances where the French would use "grotte(s)" with no capital letter), but otherwise, any direct reference to a proper noun, without being psychorigid about it, should remain as it. The idea is that when you look for i/themt on a map, you should be able to find it/them.
Penny Lynch (asker) Feb 20, 2017:
Thanks for your idea - it was useful as always to use you all as sounding boards. Yes, the cave does have two spellings (although Thais is now the accepted one) so I do need to get this point across. I think I agree with Charles but will go for "the cave of Thais or the cave of Tai? And will put a note that the word badger could be included after Tai to help explain the following sentence which as Charles says highlights a dichotomy between the more romantic and prosaic explanation.Thanks again everyone!
Charles Davis Feb 20, 2017:
Hence "romance"? I presume that the subtitle refers to the idea that "Grotte de Thaïs" romanticises the cave, because of the associations of the name, whereas "Taï" is patois.
Charles Davis Feb 20, 2017:
That's right. Patricia has found what is clearly a different Grotte du Taï (sometimes spelt Thaï) in Remoulins in the Gard.

As I say, I would guess that the name "Thaïs" is spurious and dates from the end of the nineteenth century. France's novel (1891), which I have not read, was very popular in its day, and Massenet's Thaïs was a huge hit and is often performed. I saw it only last year with Plácido Domingo (who was quite wonderful) singing Athanaël. There was also a play in 1911 and a silent film version by Sam Goldwyn in 1917, starring Mary Garden, who had very successfully sung the role in the opera (she created other roles for Massenet, though not this one, not to mention Mélisande for Debussy in 1902). The most memorable scene in the opera is the conversion of Thaïs during a night spent in what is sometimes imagined as a cave; it's the interlude between the scenes of Act 2, when the beautiful and extremely famous Méditation for solo violin is played.
Drmanu49 Feb 20, 2017:
OK Charles, in fact there are probably other caves with the same name since in comes from a common noun "taï". I still think that you must keep capitalized words i.e. proper nouns as they are. So OK for Thaïs or Taï cave.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Feb 20, 2017:
Source text I think it is essentiel not to rewrite the source text here. The fundamental point at issue is that this is a proper noun. Indeed, even if the text were to be incorrect - something which a translator might choose to point out, following research - the whole thing turns on the fact that the source text underlines the existence of two spellings, two proper nouns, that should not be translated.
Charles Davis Feb 20, 2017:
@Dr Manu I hear you, and Grotte de Thaïs is certainly what it is commonly called nowadays, but "Grotte du Taï" certainly exists as an alternative name in learned literature. I've already quoted one example; here is another (and there are more):

"A. BOCQUET - Gisement de la grotte du Taï (ou Thaïs) et abri de Campalou-St-Nazaire-en-Royans"
http://www.parc-du-vercors.fr/documentation/opac_css/index.p...

The translator's task here is obviously to reflect the fact that there are alternative forms of the name of the same cave.
Drmanu49 Feb 20, 2017:
Once again I live in the region and it is never written or called grotte de thaî;
Charles Davis Feb 20, 2017:
Yes Surely you should just put "The Thaïs cave or the Taï cave?" It must be about the origin of each form of the name and (probably) which is the original name. My money would be on "Taï", the patois word (see glossary here: https://books.google.es/books?id=k2ACAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA408&lpg=P... ), with "Thaïs" (now the standard name, as Dr Manu says) being a corruption, under the influence of the legend of St Thaïs, as in Anatole France's novel and Massenet's opera. Thaïs, a converted courtesan. spends a period with Athanaël (Paphnuce in the novel) in the desert and depicted by Ribera at the mouth of a cave.

I don't think you should translate "Taï" here. Just put the name. The fact that it means "badger" will surely emerge in the text.

By the way it is sometimes (though more rarely) called "Grotte du Taï":
"grottes du Taï (180 m) et du Taï 2 (200 m)"
https://books.google.es/books?id=020BByVewvoC&pg=PA30 (caption bottom right)
Drmanu49 Feb 20, 2017:
It is never written Taï ( I live in the region) but the name does come from a local badger called taï.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne Feb 20, 2017:
Stick to the original The whole point of the original here, Ias I understand it, is the very point that the name can be written in two different ways. When it comes to the pronunciation, I think they are the same. Is that correct? In any event, as the whole idea is about there being two different spellings, each with its own origin, in my opinion, the only possible option here is to keep both spellings in order to make the same point in English.
What you may have to do however, is to point out that fact out and then perhaps indicate what it means "badger cave", etc.

Proposed translations

1 hr

They are two different "grottes", the 2nd is in the Gard

Both Grotte de Thaïs and Grotte de Tai exist in France. There is a reference to the second on the Pont de Gard website-
Grotte du Taï

Située dans le vallon de la Sartanette, la grotte du Taï est connue dans la littérature depuis le 19ème siècle.

Elle a fait l’objet de campagnes de fouilles dans les années 1960 et 1970. Depuis 2001, une équipe du CNRS y mène des recherches qui ont permis de reconnaître que la grotte avait été utilisée à divers moments du Néolithique.

La stratigraphie de la grotte documente deux grandes périodes du néolithique :

l’une du néolithique ancien (environ 5000 avant notre ère).
l’autre correspond au néolithique final (environ 3000 avant notre ère).
Peer comment(s):
neutral Charles Davis : I think this is a red herring; it's a different cave. This is clearly about two forms of the name of a cave (actually two) in Vercors.
9 mins
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43 mins

Grotte de Thaïs

Grotte de Thaïs - Saint-Nazaire-en-Royans - Villard de Lans
www.villarddelans.com › ... › Grottes et sites naturels
Descriptif détailléThaïs illustre par ses roches sculptées et ses colorations exceptionnelles le fabuleux travail des eaux souterraines. De la préhistoire jusqu'aux ..

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Note added at 53 minutes (2017-02-20 16:44:39 GMT)
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Do NOT change the name since it is the proper name. But it does come from a local badger called «Taï ».

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Note added at 56 minutes (2017-02-20 16:47:42 GMT)
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The Thaïs cave or cave of Thaïs is the correct name.

Prehistoric Cave of Thaïs - Leisure centre in Saint-Nazaire-en-Royans
www.france-voyage.com/cities.../prehistoric-cave-thais-4107...
Traduire cette page
The Prehistoric Cave of Thaïs is a leisure site to discover during your holidays when staying near Saint-Nazaire-en-Royans (Drôme, Auvergne-Rhône-Alps).

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Note added at 1 heure (2017-02-20 17:25:28 GMT)
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There are probably other caves with the same name since in comes from a common noun "taï". I still think that you must keep capitalized words i.e. proper nouns as they are. So OK for Thaïs or Taï cave.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Charles Davis : The more usual name, certainly, but this is not a translation solution for the source term // You can translate "Grotte", though not of course "Thaïs", but the point here is the two forms of the name and (probably) which is "correct".
6 mins
You never translate a proper noun!
neutral Mair A-W (PhD) : But the source text is "Grotte de Thaïs ou Taï"
26 mins
OK for Thaïs or Taï cave
neutral AllegroTrans : you need to translate "Grotte"
50 mins
OK for Thaïs or Taï cave
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