| Էջերը այս նյութում: < [1 2] | Bare Website Translation Tool - A Better Google Translate Շարքի հրապարակողը: netEditr
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gianfranco 
Բրազիլիա
Local time: 19:21
Անդամ (2001)
անգլերենից իտալերեն
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| You made a very different claim earlier | Jan 12, 2009 |
netEditr wrote:
Speaking as a hybrid translator/HTML designer, you NEED space fillers to retain the format of a HTML document when designing in WYSIWYG design mode.
Actually, we do not work directly on empty HTML files, with tags separated by nothing, and therefore there is no need of filler text.
We use software that makes the original HTML files available for translation, shows the original text on the side (or above) and protects the tags from involuntary damage while editing.
The editing can be done starting from the original language, overwriting it in a separate field, or not. The choice depends very much on the translators' preference.
I prefer to overwrite the original, but overwriting a machine translation messes my brain up, as I would tend to understand it, and then I would have to refer to the original in any case, for reference, even in case of a pretty good MT output, because such output could make sense in itself but it could diverge from the original meaning.
netEditr wrote:
I will review each sentence to see if it makes sense and meaning conveyed. It also helps me put my mind into the target language mode when I read everything in the target language even if it becomes ridiculous gibberish.
But this is very different from your initial claims. You said that the tool would help to translate faster into a language for which there was not a good command.
Now you say that you use the tool because it provides a baseline for editing, which is sometimes good and at times gibberish.
This inconsistency is crucial, because if you do not master the output language you cannot judge if even a simple sentence is rendering the original meaning, let alone edit or improve it.
Either you master the target language, and you don't really need this contraption, or you don't master it, and then you must pass the editing to someone who can understand and edit it appropriately.
The actual editing task may be performed in any editor, including yours, but that is not a crucial detail (as long as the page structure is maintained) as there are many ways and many tools that do it.
netEditr wrote:
Almost everytime I have to re-edit, re-phrase, and re-word so I agree that machine translation have many errors.
You see, we have found something on which we agree.
netEditr wrote:
This is the same job that I did before when working with human translators, they would send me their final copy and then I do final edits (I was an editor/proofreader in my previous translating career).
Hard to believe, considering your approach to translation issues.
netEditr wrote:
Anyhow, each person has their own ways of working and sets of tools. And given the complexity of different softwares and features, sometimes even with a combination of different softwares you are missing a small feature that will glue everything well together. Overall, it has definitely helped me get my HTML translated quickly while I am using a CMS to manage and publish HTML articles.
In which languages? Can we see them?
bye
Gianfranco
| | | | | bad habits die hard | Jan 12, 2009 |
lol.. yes, it is a horrible habit. The IT industry mentality is "release early, release often" no matter if there are bugs or not. It's the "we'll fix it later in upcoming minor releases" attitude.
Chris
| | | | | learned something new today | Jan 12, 2009 |
Actually, we do not work directly on empty HTML files, with tags separated by nothing, and therefore there is no need of filler text.
I see, learned something new today
But this is very different from your initial claims. You said that the tool would help to translate faster into a language for which there was not a good command.
After a MT translation from English => Chinese, though my Chinese is poor, I pick out obvious errors that seem ridiculous, I know one would never say or write it literally and make it translate sensibly with better flow.
After a MT translation from Chinese => English I pick out things that seem ridiculous and make it translate sensibly with better flow and maybe even localize it by adding English idioms to give it more punch. Obivously, I have a better command on English since if the Chinese didn't call for using an English idiom, but I knew that the meaning in Chinese translates to a simple short English idiom.
About inconsistency in my claims about translation speed, lets say each MT phrase can be rated with 0-5 stars.
It all depends on what the MT gives me so that is why there is inconsisitency in translation speed. If every phrase is a 0 star, I need to start the entire document from scratch so it's the same as working with the original source. If every other phrase seems to make sense, (usually 1-2 stars), I'll just insert words, reword, cut/paste structure around to make it sound right. Rarely are there 4-5 star MT phrase translations.
Starting from scratch is the slowest for me. If there are 1-2 star MT translations for me to improve upon, I saved myself from starting from scratch so MT aid is always faster than working than the source for me.
As someone stated previously, most time is spent on thinking on how to translate it, I agree. With MT, I instantly have a foundation to build upon. If it's ridiculous, start from 0, if it's ok, then start from 1-2 and go from there to make it a 5 star phrase translation.
Hard to believe, considering your approach to translation issues.
I haven't heard of someone slightly condemning on how to approach any kind of work for a long time. For each question/problem, there are a multitude of answer/solutions/approaches. If it works then good for that person, then good for him/her as long as the results are met with the requesters' needs.
In which languages? Can we see them?
Chinese => English editing/proofreading translations. I'm not looking for a job, just sharing a tool here
If it doesn't fit in your toolset then simply ignore it, if it does scratch that hard to reach itch behind your back, glad to have helped
Regards,
Chris
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 23:21
գերմաներենից անգլերեն
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I don't wish to be accused of thread drift (a cardinal sin here), so I've deleted this post.
[Edited at 2009-01-12 11:48 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Նիդեռլանդներ
Local time: 23:21
Անդամ (2006)
անգլերենից աֆրիկանս
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| Different strokes for different okes | Jan 12, 2009 |
Marc P wrote:
Why do some software developers go to the trouble of producing software for translators without first asking them what they need?
Well, let's see...
1. Different translators have different needs
2. Different translators like different solutions to their problems
3. Sometimes a developer develops a product for himself or for one user, and then seeing that it is useful to them, tries to promote the product to a wider user base
The way I understood the OP's initial post, reason #3 is relevant here. The developer solved some problems he had and thought perhaps other people might be interested in his solution. So far, most replies in this thread came from people who do not have the need that this tool is addressing (although some of them seem to be unaware that the OP isn't actually trying to solve all problems existant).
A utility for extracting translatable text from a TTX file and putting it back again after translation.
Hmm, I don't see how anything the developer had done to address his need could be used or adapted for addressing your need.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
Միացյալ Նահանգներ
Local time: 14:21
անգլերենից գերմաներեն
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Ի հիշատակ | Not sure what's so "lol" about that. | Jan 12, 2009 |
netEditr wrote:
lol.. yes, it is a horrible habit. The IT industry mentality is "release early, release often" no matter if there are bugs or not. It's the "we'll fix it later in upcoming minor releases" attitude.
Chris
The previously mentioned screw-up hurt the following parties:
- One great agency
- One manufacturer who invested a lot of money
- 5 expensive translators for 5 languages
- 5 editors
- 1 terrified PM who had her first week at work and inherited this mess
- 1 bug. I.e., some unprofessional character who played translator for an hour
I fail to see the humor in that.
Listen to Marc. He has some interesting things to say.
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... It's the sad fact that we all put up with this in one way or another no matter which industry you are in that I'm shaking my head and laughing at. IT will always have a hand in every industry and will reveal this kind of attitude, sometimes for good and sometimes for worse.
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Maybe proz.com should have an area where all proz translators all pitch in in what they wish their current translation softwares could do. Or in the forums so potential developers can see what everybody needs here.
Check out: http://www.uservoice.com/
This site lets you create a wishlist of anything. and users can vote for their most needed feature. (You can achieve the same thing with... See more Maybe proz.com should have an area where all proz translators all pitch in in what they wish their current translation softwares could do. Or in the forums so potential developers can see what everybody needs here.
Check out: http://www.uservoice.com/
This site lets you create a wishlist of anything. and users can vote for their most needed feature. (You can achieve the same thing with a forum poll if the list isn't extremely long or just a Wishlist sticky topic).
Wishlist Example:
1) A utility for extracting translatable text from a TTX file and putting it back again after translation
2) A utility for...
3) A utility for...
4) A utility for...
5) A utility for...
In this case, Marc would vote for #1 and everybody else would vote for the feature they need most. At the end of the month, you would know what the #1 request is from the Proz community.
Has this community done something similar to what I'm describing? I'm sure a community event like this would help potential developers create an application/tool that the proz community would instantly grab up. ▲ Collapse
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Nicole Schnell
Միացյալ Նահանգներ
Local time: 14:21
անգլերենից գերմաներեն
+ ...
Ի հիշատակ | No, we don't. No industry will, BTW. | Jan 13, 2009 |
netEditr wrote:
... It's the sad fact that we all put up with this in one way or another no matter which industry you are in that I'm shaking my head and laughing at. IT will always have a hand in every industry and will reveal this kind of attitude, sometimes for good and sometimes for worse.
Good one.
To answer your question regarding the wish list:
Maybe you read a little bit in the articles section first? Also, if you need to get an idea how professional tools work, you can even watch it on video here. Learn and catch up. There you might gain some professional insight and maybe some enlightenment, why recommending machine translation to professional translators is comparable to recommending a plastic tricycle from Toys'R Us to a potential BMW-buyer.
Bye, bye!
| | | | | all I needed was a plastic tricycle... | Jan 13, 2009 |
...why recommending machine translation to professional translators is comparable to recommending a plastic tricycle from Toys'R Us to a potential BMW-buyer.
Yes, I figured that out after a few posts into this topic and understood why people were replying with some character so I didn't reply with the same attitude.
After grocery shopping, I drove my BMW into my driveaway, the 2nd car was already parked in the garage so I had to park in the driveway. The kids left a plastic tricycle out in the driveway. The grocery bag was a bit heavy, so I grabbed the plastic tricycle and plopped the big bag onto the seat and dragged it back home. It did the job and helped me not break my back
Will research this site more thoroughly next time though all my suggestions are more proactive than being passive about letting others know what proz users want. Lets say at the end of a 100 persons survey, the top request has 40 people all wishing to have a "X tool to solve Y problem", and a developer easily sees this information and is interested in developing it also, these 40 people can all contribute US$10 each and the developer gets the pot after he finishes the tool and having it working for everyone.
That's a much more active solution than just complaining why there is no tool that does this or that. Not that I'm advocating to become such a developer since I don't have time on my hands but it's something you may all consider.
Regards,
Chris
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