| 话题中的页数: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53] > | Ten common myths about translation quality
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| | Lincoln Hui 
香港
Local time: 00:55
会员
Chinese汉语译成English英语
+ ...
| Good companies? | Jul 29, 2013 |
Actually, good companies often stipulate "native or near native-proficiency" and they are willing to test applicants, whatever their claims are.
Also, you insist on talking about "good companies" and "professionals", but truly professional translators do not write bad English that can be easily identified, and they will not attempt to translate into a language which they are not sufficiently good writers in. The problems that arise with non-natives usually involve people who are not... See more Actually, good companies often stipulate "native or near native-proficiency" and they are willing to test applicants, whatever their claims are.
Also, you insist on talking about "good companies" and "professionals", but truly professional translators do not write bad English that can be easily identified, and they will not attempt to translate into a language which they are not sufficiently good writers in. The problems that arise with non-natives usually involve people who are not "good professionals". Double standard? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | For me a good agency is one that does not have any | Jul 29, 2013 |
ridiculous requirements of general nature, ethnic background expectations, pays the right rate, and has reasonable deadlines. They should also be able to tell the quality of a particular translation, after two or three pages, rather than go by anything else. If they don't have time for that, or money -- let them get rid of some of the people who check the fuzziness of matches, rather than competent editors, or perhaps they should get more editors, even on a freelance basis.
[Edited at ... See more ridiculous requirements of general nature, ethnic background expectations, pays the right rate, and has reasonable deadlines. They should also be able to tell the quality of a particular translation, after two or three pages, rather than go by anything else. If they don't have time for that, or money -- let them get rid of some of the people who check the fuzziness of matches, rather than competent editors, or perhaps they should get more editors, even on a freelance basis.
[Edited at 2013-07-29 09:51 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Four cases for Giovanni - I'd have more | Jul 29, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
One of the issues that turned contentious in this thread was whether native-level command weakens when a person lives away from his native area for extended periods of time.
I found an interesting case in the link given by Ty which confirms that this indeed happens, and people staying away from their native areas do indeed lose command over their native language. Here is the full quote: sorry, but this indicates that you don't have a clue. I am in the exact situation and I can tell you that you never lose your writing skills, which are entirely different from your speaking skills. It's very easy to keep your writing skills flowing: you just need to read a lot in your native language. Even if you live abroad, this is very very easy to do. I can assure you that your speaking skills come back completely within only 3 days of returning to your country. I live in England and I'm in Italy right now. It's like I never left. True professionals look after their skills, it's their job. So, please, stop being so patronising, thinking you know it all.
1. A woman from Trieste moved to Brazil, where she met another Italian from Venice, and they got married. Both learned to speak and write flawless Portuguese. Some 30 years later, she went on vacation to visit her family in Trieste, and everybody there was amazed at her Genovese accent, while she had been to Genoa only once, to board the ship that took her down here.
For some reason, every Brazilian who learns Italian speaks it with a Genovese accent. I do, and my teacher was from Florence. My guess is that Genoa hosted Portuguese sailors for so many centuries, that they had their influence.
2. Another woman moved from Krakow to Brazil. While she kept speaking Polish with her parents, and learned to speak flawless Portuguese, her line of work required her to speak DE, FR, EN - which she did fluently - every other day, though it was not related to translation or interpreting.
Some 40 years later she returned to Krakow, where everybody thought she was a "classic Polish theater actress" from the way she spoke. She noticed that the "educated" Polish then sounded like what she recalled as the unskilled laborers' lingo from her earlier days there.
3. My father was the youngest of 7 siblings. After the end of WWII he and his next and closest brother, 3 years older, parted. Both were in their 40s. My parents came to Brazil (and learned PT), and my uncle & aunt went to Australia (and learned EN). Both couples kept speaking Polish at home and with friends.
The Aussies came to Brazil for my wedding in 1978. The amazing thing is that - as my father said - both were born on the same bed, grew up together, yet some 25+ years later, I had often to intervene as an EN-PT interpreter (I don't speak Polish) to help them communicate in their native language.
4. This one is an extreme case... A friend of mine, a Brazilian, went to NYC to take rabbinic studies and, of course, that was where he learned Hebrew. Then he went to Israel, where he met another common friend. They got together, and went into some coffee shop for a snack. The first one's simple order of a sandwich got the completely astonished waiter to ask: "Have you just stepped out from the Old Testament?"
Nowadays TV and the Internet help mitigating this effect. However it's undeniable that languages change over time within their geographic locus. Nevertheless, native speakers overseas will usually stick to the original version they learned before leaving.
| | | | | Never said that... | Jul 29, 2013 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
May be you harbour the notion that non-native translators are not professionals and they don't look after their skills. Otherwise you wouldn't make this statement.
Clearly the patroniser sits on the other side of the court.
[Edited at 2013-07-29 09:49 GMT]
so, stop twisting my words... you are getting rude again, which happens when you run out of arguments.
I'm sure some non-natives do, but most don't, judging from the atrocious stuff you see on the Internet and that I've seen personally in my work.
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Balasubramaniam L.
印度
Local time: 22:25
正式会员 (自2006)
English英语译成Hindi印地语
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SITE LOCALIZER | Exactly, now you say it | Jul 29, 2013 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
We are all in the same boat.
Natives and non-natives are all in the same boat. They are either good professionals or bad professionals. They are either proficient in their languages or are not.
Nativeness in source or target languages does not come into the picture at all.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
英国
Local time: 17:55
Portuguese葡萄牙语译成English英语
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| Change your strategy | Jul 29, 2013 |
One cannot win with you Bala. We’re either wanting in the native or non-native department. If your ideal is for translators to be translating into their non-native language to a standard that is indistinguishable from a native speaker then how do you propose they achieve this? I’d say that an extended period of residence in their non-native language would be an optimum solution to this conundrum.
There is a fraction of excellent translators working into their non-native languag... See more One cannot win with you Bala. We’re either wanting in the native or non-native department. If your ideal is for translators to be translating into their non-native language to a standard that is indistinguishable from a native speaker then how do you propose they achieve this? I’d say that an extended period of residence in their non-native language would be an optimum solution to this conundrum.
There is a fraction of excellent translators working into their non-native language who have built an excellent reputation for themselves and are not short of work. They have the respect of their colleagues, have proved themselves to their clients and have no need to spend their days on Proz fora alienating others with insults, petty sarcasm and unbridled arrogance. I would recommend any other highly-competent translators feeling short-changed by the current situation to re-think their strategy. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | well, José... | Jul 29, 2013 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Nowadays TV and the Internet help mitigating this effect. However it's undeniable that languages change over time within their geographic locus. Nevertheless, native speakers overseas will usually stick to the original version they learned before leaving.
we are talking about professional translators, not your friends or a Polish woman you happen to know... as a professional, you make sure this doesn't happen. It's part of your job.
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Lincoln Hui wrote:
Actually, good companies often stipulate "native or near native-proficiency" and they are willing to test applicants, whatever their claims are.
Also, you insist on talking about "good companies" and "professionals", but truly professional translators do not write bad English that can be easily identified, and they will not attempt to translate into a language which they are not sufficiently good writers in. The problems that arise with non-natives usually involve people who are not "good professionals". Double standard?
not double standards. I never said that natives with incompetent skills are ok... and they are not professionals if they can't write properly. I don't know where you are getting this stuff from...
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Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
We are all in the same boat. Natives and non-natives are all in the same boat. They are either good professionals or bad professionals. They are either proficient in their languages or are not. Nativeness in source or target languages does not come into the picture at all.
do you keep skipping the parts you don't like?
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
印度
Local time: 22:25
正式会员 (自2006)
English英语译成Hindi印地语
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Lisa, it is not a question of losing or winning | Jul 29, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
One cannot win with you Bala. We’re either wanting in the native or non-native department. If your ideal is for translators to be translating into their non-native language to a standard that is indistinguishable from a native speaker then how do you propose they achieve this? I’d say that an extended period of residence in their non-native language would be an optimum solution to this conundrum.
There is a fraction of excellent translators working into their non-native language who have built an excellent reputation for themselves and are not short of work. They have the respect of their colleagues, have proved themselves to their clients and have no need to spend their days on Proz fora alienating others with insults, petty sarcasm and unbridled arrogance. I would recommend any other highly-competent translators feeling short-changed by the current situation to re-think their strategy.
I am just pointing out some of the inadequacies of our profession. Every profession constantly redefines itself in the light of new understanding, and it is my belief that we translators too really need to rethink on the idea of native translation.
The problem starts when you take it personally. None of the statements here are made against any individual, unless they are made in reply to personal comments on me by others. So the question of arrogance does not arise at all.
So don't take this personally. It is just a detached post mortem of our industry/profession by one of your fellow translators.
[Edited at 2013-07-29 10:14 GMT]
| | | | | That definitely happens!!! | Jul 29, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Perhaps because some moronic companies classify the so called native language by someone's last name, and if it does not sound English, even if the person was a third generation American, let's say, some administrative personnel of certain companies from outside of the US, especially, might still have doubts about their language skills. If your name is John Smith, they don't have any doubts, even if you only speak French.
There are three translators I know in the Sao Paulo State, namely:
- yours truly
- Adolfo Von Randow
- Curt Schönberger
... who only work in EN+PT. We don't speak any German at all! I only studied DE as far as Lesson #4 before giving up. Adolfo went further, got to Lesson #6, gave up too. And Curt, I only talked with him once, AFAIK he didn't try to study it at all.
Yet some prospects contact all three of us in outright Deutsch, and sound kinda insulted when we are unable to respond as they expected.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
印度
Local time: 22:25
正式会员 (自2006)
English英语译成Hindi印地语
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Now you raise some relevant questions | Jul 29, 2013 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
We’re either wanting in the native or non-native department. If your ideal is for translators to be translating into their non-native language to a standard that is indistinguishable from a native speaker then how do you propose they achieve this? I’d say that an extended period of residence in their non-native language would be an optimum solution to this conundrum.
That is why all this talk about native translators is nonsense. You can't be a translator and also be hundred percent native in your target language. The simple reason is you also need to learn your second langauge, preferably in your childhood, to become a translator, for whoever has heard of a translator knowing only one language?
Now if you spend substantial amounts of time in learning a second language, or third and fourth languages in some people's cases, then you are spending that much less time in learning your native language. So your native language proficiency would be to that extent, theoretically, less than the native proficiency of a monolingual person spending all his time learning the sole language that he learns. In other words, native competency of a monolingual native and a translator native are not strictly comparable.
Moreover, to learn the second language, the translator would in most cases also have to move out of his native area and into the area of the second language, and in the case of the better translators this happens in early childhood. This further means the translator gets even less chance, as compared to a monolingual speaker of his native language, to learn his native language.
The conclusion is, in it oxymoronic to talk of native competency in relation to translators, unless you mean something different by it than what it means to be natively competent in the monolingual sense.
Which is why in translation we need to talk of proficiency in languages and not about nativeness in languages.
And which is why this site as well as all those agencies which make such a hullabaloo about natives only translating are based on bad science.
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| Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Replies to a hidden post | | It's a fact... | Jul 29, 2013 |
that professional natives, in most cases, are more proficient than non-natives. The proof? The market. Dispute.
| | | | | 话题中的页数: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Ten common myths about translation quality | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
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