| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Age discrimination in job posting on Proz Thread poster: Elizabeth Tauroza
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The Misha
Local time: 07:02
Russian to English
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| In Western jurisprudence, it's called a freedom of contract | May 2, 2011 |
Edward Potter wrote:
I do not know the laws in these different countries. However, there is a clear economic principle here which shouldn't be meddled with.
If an outsourcer wants to do something stupid that hurts their business, they should be free to do so. It shouldn't be the EU's or anyone else's business how the company wants to run itself.
If the company passes over excellent translators for a superficial reason, they should be left to suffer without them. A smarter company will pick them up and put the stupid company out of business. A good way of mucking up an economy is attempting to "fix problems" such as these.
[Edited at 2011-05-02 13:38 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-05-02 13:38 GMT]
And it's exactly as described above. Everyone should be free to make complete idiots of themselves, ruin their business and fail in each and every way imaginable. This is all right, this is normal. Once the Big Brother steps in to protect you from yourself, then oh, Houston, do we have a problem! First you give up your freedom of contract and other basics like that. Then the government starts buying your health insurance - and raising taxes accordingly. Before you know it, they want to tell you where to live, what clothes to wear and what thoughts to think. Or else. I should know, I was born in a place like that, and for the record, I do not want to go back. So bring it all on, discrimination and all. I'll deal with it in my own. Oh, and by the way, I am WAY over 40.
| | | | | @The Misha: By "Western jurisprudence" ... | May 2, 2011 |
... you mean "US jurisprudence", I suppose ?
Because France and most of European countries do not accept such "freedom of contract", and I have the feeling that we belong to the "western" part of the world, unless I am mistaken, am I?
Any contract containing such discriminatory clause would be deemed to be invalid and a breach of law.
For once, I am proud that this kind of freedom has been ... See more ... you mean "US jurisprudence", I suppose ?
Because France and most of European countries do not accept such "freedom of contract", and I have the feeling that we belong to the "western" part of the world, unless I am mistaken, am I?
Any contract containing such discriminatory clause would be deemed to be invalid and a breach of law.
For once, I am proud that this kind of freedom has been forbidden by the legislator in "my" western part of the world.
[Edited at 2011-05-02 20:00 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Edward Potter 
Spain
Local time: 13:02
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Freedom of Contract | May 3, 2011 |
The Misha wrote: Edward Potter wrote:
I do not know the laws in these different countries. However, there is a clear economic principle here which shouldn't be meddled with.
If an outsourcer wants to do something stupid that hurts their business, they should be free to do so. It shouldn't be the EU's or anyone else's business how the company wants to run itself.
If the company passes over excellent translators for a superficial reason, they should be left to suffer without them. A smarter company will pick them up and put the stupid company out of business. A good way of mucking up an economy is attempting to "fix problems" such as these.
[Edited at 2011-05-02 13:38 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-05-02 13:38 GMT] And it's exactly as described above. Everyone should be free to make complete idiots of themselves, ruin their business and fail in each and every way imaginable. This is all right, this is normal. Once the Big Brother steps in to protect you from yourself, then oh, Houston, do we have a problem! First you give up your freedom of contract and other basics like that. Then the government starts buying your health insurance - and raising taxes accordingly. Before you know it, they want to tell you where to live, what clothes to wear and what thoughts to think. Or else. I should know, I was born in a place like that, and for the record, I do not want to go back. So bring it all on, discrimination and all. I'll deal with it in my own. Oh, and by the way, I am WAY over 40.
I try to listen carefully to ex-Soviets. They've lived in a system that sacrified the individual in the name of its god and religion: society and universal justice.
As the Western European dominos fall one by one, these ideas are still sacredly kept. In fact, some are rioting at the mere notion of taking away their rights to things produced by others.
Forcing a company to hire a certain type of person is part of this malady. It is an attempt to control others. Some are laws that force you to hire a certain race or gender. For example, the "Jim Crow" laws in the American south a few decades ago, and now "positive discrimination" laws, resulted from companies working successfully by employing "undesireable people".
In the case at hand, those undesireable people are between the ages of 25 and 40. A person out of this age range might get jealous and indignantly wish to force the company to hire anyone that person deems fit for the job. The last person to ask would be the company, who has a direct stake in its good or bad decisions. Some would call this meddling with an economy.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." - Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (?)
| | | | B D Finch
France
Local time: 13:02
French to English
+ ...
| Freelancers can defend principles too! | May 3, 2011 |
The Misha wrote:
to limit an outsourcer's freedom to select providers as he or she sees fit. We are not employees, and no such "protections" apply. If they want us with our hair died green or wearing polka dot T-shirts, they are fully entitled to specify that as a requirement - just as we as contractors are fully entitled to tell them to stick it you know where. If you want protection, get a job and join the union.
So would the Misha take that to its logical conclusion and agree that it is OK for an outsourcer or agency to stipulate: no Jews, no blacks, no homosexuals ... ?
Misha seems to imagine that unions are institutions that somehow exist independently of their members and give protection to pathetic weak people (unlike Misha him/herself). No, unions are associations of workers and exist because workers united together to fight for rights against powerful bosses - a union is only as strong as its members. The fact that we are freelancers does not mean that we have to act like rats each out for him or herself (unfair really to use the rats cliché, as even rats have quite well-organised social networks), and that we can't act in solidarity with our fellow freelancers or act on principle.
Age discrimination is wrong and ProZ should not sanction it. As members, we should exert pressure to achieve the aim of ProZ acting in a principled manner.
I note that some people have now cited "freedom of contract". The parties to an employment contract do not have equal power and "freedom of contract" can be characterised as the law of the jungle. Those who are arguing against restricting the "freedom" of bosses, including powerful corporations to hire who they chose are arguing for the oppression of those who are exploited and/or rejected by that system. I don't believe that there are many billionaire translators in ProZ, so they are basically arguing against their own interest, presumably because they consider themselves in some way superior to those who need any protection they themselves can manage without. I find this lack of solidarity very sad. As has been pointed out, in Europe, we have a more equitable distribution of rights, but only so long as we continue to defend it.
BDF
[Edited at 2011-05-03 12:49 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-05-03 12:56 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 13:02
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Unfair discrimination | May 3, 2011 |
Elizabeth Tauroza wrote:
I would just like to point out that a job for IT-EN translators recently advertised on Proz must surely be in breach of both Italian and EU legislation regarding age discrimination.
Really? Can you point to a specific law that is being broken here?
Would it also be illegal in Italy for a patient to switch doctors because he discovered that his docter has a different gender? For example, if you are pregnant and you go see a gynae or midwife with an obviously female name, and when you get there you discover it is a man -- would it be illegal for you to say "sorry, I thought you were a woman" and then see another doctor from that point onward?
It would be illegal for a restaurant owner to refuse to hire a person as a waiter based solely on gender, but would it also be illegal for a restaurant customer to refuse to be waited on by a person because of that waiter's gender (if the restaurant owner is willing to tolerate this)? See, the principle here is that there is no employer-employee relationship between us and clients.
I can't help wondering why they are looking for translators in that age range. Do they think that people start getting senile after 40 years old? Or is it that they are hoping candidates will apply lower rates if they are younger?
My guess is that they believe a candidate of under 25 years lacks life experience that older people have, and a candidate of over 40 would be less computer literate than older candidates. The life experience thing has something to be said for it, but computer literacy can be lacking in al ages.
Thinking out of the box... a person aged 25-40 would have been in high school in the 80s and 90s, and the teen popular music styles in those decades were quite differnet from the styles of the 60's, 70's and 00's -- and this might also have an effect on the way you translate, right? (not entirely serious)
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 19:02
Chinese to English
| Under EU law... | May 3, 2011 |
"Equality must be guaranteed in all sectors of public and private employment and occupation, including contract work, self employment, military service and statutory office."
http://www.cestim.it/argomenti/09razzismo/europa/antidiscrimination_law_europe05.pdf
Cheers to you hardcore free market dreamers - sorry, idealists. We have anti... See more "Equality must be guaranteed in all sectors of public and private employment and occupation, including contract work, self employment, military service and statutory office."
http://www.cestim.it/argomenti/09razzismo/europa/antidiscrimination_law_europe05.pdf
Cheers to you hardcore free market dreamers - sorry, idealists. We have anti-discrimination laws because they make the economy better. Everyone should know this, but particularly if you're from the US, with the southern states' dreadful history of discrimination, you should be ashamed of yourself for not understanding the point of anti-discrimination law.
Mr Potter:
"If an outsourcer wants to do something stupid that hurts their business, they should be free to do so. "
Just like all those shops and bus operators were perfectly justified in denying services to black people back in the 1960s? The market really sorted that out, didn't it? I remember how Martin Luther King stood up and said, "Don't worry, folks. The market will end discrimination. Best not mess with the 'clear economic principles'."
Excuse my bitterness, but it offends me that such meanness still exists in this world. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:02
German to English
+ ...
| Wholehearted agreement | May 3, 2011 |
with Phil Hand and BD Finch
Phil Hand wrote: "Equality must be guaranteed in all sectors of public and private employment and occupation, including contract work, self employment, military service and statutory office." http://www.cestim.it/argomenti/09razzismo/europa/antidiscrimination_law_europe05.pdf Cheers to you hardcore free market dreamers - sorry, idealists. We have anti-discrimination laws because they make the economy better. Everyone should know this, but particularly if you're from the US, with the southern states' dreadful history of discrimination, you should be ashamed of yourself for not understanding the point of anti-discrimination law. Mr Potter: "If an outsourcer wants to do something stupid that hurts their business, they should be free to do so. " Just like all those shops and bus operators were perfectly justified in denying services to black people back in the 1960s? The market really sorted that out, didn't it? I remember how Martin Luther King stood up and said, "Don't worry, folks. The market will end discrimination. Best not mess with the 'clear economic principles'." Excuse my bitterness, but it offends me that such meanness still exists in this world.
This should not be a matter of personal political opinion but one of applicable law.
| | | | | confusing the issues | May 3, 2011 |
Edward Potter wrote: "Forcing a company to hire a certain type of person is part of this malady. It is an attempt to control others."
[/quote]
You seem to be confusing forcing someone to employ someone and not allowing them to exclude people from opportunities. A law that prevents people from specifying that applicants for a job must be white/male/not Jewish or whatever does NOT force them to employ anyone - it stops them from discriminating against people for reasons that are abs... See more Edward Potter wrote: "Forcing a company to hire a certain type of person is part of this malady. It is an attempt to control others."
[/quote]
You seem to be confusing forcing someone to employ someone and not allowing them to exclude people from opportunities. A law that prevents people from specifying that applicants for a job must be white/male/not Jewish or whatever does NOT force them to employ anyone - it stops them from discriminating against people for reasons that are absolutely unconnected with the job such as race, religion, gender etc.
Talking about jealousy simply trivializes a serious argument. I believe in working for a society where people have equal opportunities and the best person for the job gets it.
I entirely agree with Phil - discrimination of these various kinds has no part in civilised society and it's a pity that it still exists.
Elizabeth
[Edited at 2011-05-04 13:28 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 13:02
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Interesting file, but not clear enough | May 3, 2011 |
That is a very interesting file, which compares the national legislation of the various EU countries.
Unfortunately the file does not define "contract work", but based on the two instances of its use, and the context of it, I deduce that it means "with in terms of an employment contract in the private sector"... in other words, not freelance translators.
The anti-discriminatory provisions for self-employment does not relate to hiring self-employed workers, but to allowing people to *become* self-employed workers (e.g. the countries should not have laws or regulations that state that you should be at least X years old before you may become a self-employed person).
In fact, the file states that the EU directive about *racial* discrimination, for example, extends only to goods and services that are available to the public (i.e. that is publically offered, as opposed to being privately negotiated). In some EU countries, this means that you can't prevent black people from buying from a shop but you can refuse to rent your house to a black person, because the latter is a non-public, private transaction. I believe hiring a translator would be the latter type of deal too, and I suspect that what applies to racial discrimination might also apply to sex and age discrimination.
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even if ProZ.com decides to forbid discriminatory adds there is no way to make unwilling ousourcer to hire someone older, younger, etc. than he wishes to. He will simply receive more offers and reject more.
| | | | nmfurla (X)
Local time: 13:02
Italian to English
| Discrimination no benefit to society | May 3, 2011 |
It is true that in the western part of the world individuals have the freedom to contract, but such freedom does not automatically imply that all contracts entered into freely are to be considered valid, enforceable and binding. To cite an example, in the United Kingdom the law does not recognise the validity of certain contractual clauses. Where a clause operates contrary to law or if a clause in a commercial contract is deemed unfair and unreasonable by the court it is unenforceable. Even whe... See more It is true that in the western part of the world individuals have the freedom to contract, but such freedom does not automatically imply that all contracts entered into freely are to be considered valid, enforceable and binding. To cite an example, in the United Kingdom the law does not recognise the validity of certain contractual clauses. Where a clause operates contrary to law or if a clause in a commercial contract is deemed unfair and unreasonable by the court it is unenforceable. Even where the contracting parties are commercial enterprises an English court may not uphold a contractual clause if it has the effect of giving a grossly unfair advantage to a party who was in a substantially stronger bargaining position. Also, deliberate misstatements and fraudulent misrepresentations can affect the enforceability of a clause or even the entire contract. That said, I believe it is somewhat simplistic and, indeed, incorrect to insinuate that freedom of contract implies unrestrained liberty of conduct when bargaining with the intent of forming a contract.
I agree with the original poster of this thread that the advertisement in question reeks of discrimination. The outsourcer failed to take into account the geographical reach of its advertising and, in my opinion, was ignorant of the fact that whereas some employers may blatantly disregard anti-discrimination laws in their advertising, potential candidates are increasingly attentive to this issue. Admittedly, Italian law does allow firms to recruit on the basis of age but if I'm correct that applies to certain special circumstances: for example, apprenticeships or special job training schemes correlated with certain financial incentives for employers. This does not mean, however, that each and every employer has carte blanche to discriminate at will on the basis of a candidate's age.
Laws intended to protect individuals from entrenched discriminatory practices in the workplace and at institutions serving the public have not been enacted with the aim of “sacrificing” the individual, as both Edward Potter and The Misha seem to be suggesting, but rather to create a 'level playing field' for all, regardless of gender, disability, age, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc. It was for good reason that in 1948 the United Nations General Assembly adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which includes freedom from want amongst the four fundamental freedoms. Thanks to this declaration and to the constitutions of our western nations, we pursue our dreams and aspirations without fear. Indeed, everyone has the right “to do something stupid”, and yes, “to make complete idiots of themselves” if they wish, provided they do so within the boundaries of the law and without incurring damage or injury to others.
An individual looking for work, whether as an employee or freelancer, should not be excluded from applying for a vacancy simply because he or she is of a certain age, or has a certain skin color, or has a certain disability, unless the job requires certain specific personal characteristics. Apart from special circumstances, a candidate's age, skin color, disability or sexual orientation should have no bearing whatsoever on their suitability for a job. For instance, in 1967, during Apartheid, one Professor Barnard carried out the first heart transplant in South Africa with the invaluable assistance of a black man employed as a gardener. Hamilton Naki explained to a BBC correspondent: "I was taken on to work in the garden. After a while I changed to work in the medical school in the clinical labs where they were working with dogs - eventually to work on open heart surgery and pulmonary bypass and so on." Professor Barnard recognised Mr. Niki's talents. He said: "I could see that he was a very capable young man and I gave him more and more to do and eventually he could do a heart transplant sometimes better than the junior doctors who came there." Despite Mr Naki's contribution and obvious skill he remained employed as a gardener and retired with a gardener's pension.
Let us suppose that when Albert Einstein emigrated to the USA he was subject to such rampant and overt discrimination that he was unable to continue his work on quantum physics, and indeed, was not even considered for tenure as a professor at Princeton because it was policy not to employ Jewish people in such positions. And what if Enrico Fermi had been denied the possibility to continue his work on nuclear and particle physics because he was an Italian immigrant with a Jewish wife? What a complete waste of brilliant minds that would have been!
With regard to the reference to Jim Crow laws, I see no merit in the argument that these laws forced employment of certain races. Jim Crow laws were state laws enacted from 1876 to early 1960s which brought about a “separate but equal status” of Black Americans. Jim Crow laws effectively amounted to de jure racial segregation. It must be borne in mind that these laws first came into force during the Reconstruction, namely the decade following the end of the Civil War, which confederate states lost to the northern union. Since slave labour had driven the economies of the southern states and racial inferiority had served as justification for slavery for over two centuries, it is little wonder these laws were enacted. It must be borne in mind, however, that also many poor Whites were affected by these laws, which, I reiterate, were never aimed at inclusion of a particular group in society, but separation from them, and thus their purpose was not that of “anti-discrimination” rules.
Lastly, for what concerns Edward Potter's allusion to a company having little choice as to whom it hires and to anti-discrimination laws meddling with the economy, I disagree wholeheartedly! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Proz comments please | May 3, 2011 |
I would welcome a comment from Proz regarding their job posting policy with respect to the job in question.
Moreover, the depth of prejudice on show here is, quite frankly, appalling. I cannot believe it, just that - I cannot believe it.
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Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:02
German to English
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Susanna Garcia wrote:
I would welcome a comment from Proz regarding their job posting policy with respect to the job in question.
Moreover, the depth of prejudice on show here is, quite frankly, appalling. I cannot believe it, just that - I cannot believe it.
I second both your comments.
| | | | | Discrimination based on age | May 3, 2011 |
Here's a case where the European Ombudsman acted against discrimination based on age.
Apparently some European institutions refused to hire freelance interpreters beyond the age of 65.
The Ombudsman filed a complained. His legal base was Article 21 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights.
More information here:... See more Here's a case where the European Ombudsman acted against discrimination based on age.
Apparently some European institutions refused to hire freelance interpreters beyond the age of 65.
The Ombudsman filed a complained. His legal base was Article 21 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights.
More information here:
http://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/cases/summary.faces/en/3776/html.bookmark
The text of the Charter of Fundamental rights:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf
And more information about "Agism":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageism
Daniel ▲ Collapse
| | | | Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 13:02
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
Excuse my bitterness, but it offends me that such meanness still exists in this world.
I see that you are emotional about this. I will argue my points no more.
If you are interested, I might recommend some social economics books for you to have some food for thought. Perhaps Migrations and Cultures might help. Also, Economic Facts and Fallacies is a good one. Finally, Advanced Economics: Getting Beyond Stage One could shed some light on the issue.
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