| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] | Off topic: Happy International Translation Day!! Thread poster: José Luis Villanueva-Senchuk (X)
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| Some background | Oct 4, 2003 |
two2tango wrote:
Now I openly invite those colleagues to step in and share their views with us[Edited at 2003-10-04 03:03]
From www.chs.edu.sg/~teyah/visual%20symm.pdf:
„Muslims wanted art to have a religious character. Holy symbols or images of saints should not be used. The assumption was that not the works of man - thus neither his works of art - but the word of God was
the only enduring reality. One can find the prohibition of figurative painting within the religious art of the Muslims in the so-called Hadith. This is a book which contains the traditional pronouncements of Mohammed. The Hadith says: "He, who makes images (reproductions) will suffer the harshest punishment on the day of resurrection ...". The Hadith has less authority than the Koran, which does condemn figurative art.Inscriptions are the only specific religious elements within the Islamic art. The texts reminded the believers continuously of the fact that the word of God was the only enduring reality.
The Jewish religion completely and absolutely prohibits the reproduction of scenes. In the second of the ten commandments, Mozes prohibited his people to make images. In the words of Mozes: "You shall have no other gods but me". Religious Jews usually stick to this commandment. As the prohibition of reproduction does not allow any other way of reproduction, the Jews have not left any visual inheritance. The reproduction of creatures of God would be seen as an imitation of the work of creation and can only be a caricature. In theory it is not allowed to own images. Only if images are used in such a way that there is no question of any worshipping - for instance pictures on cushions or rugs or pictures in passages where it is impossible to worship - the use of images is allowed.”
Isn’t St. Jerome Day a form of worshipping the patron saint? The topic is clearly controversial.
Ewa
| | | | two2tango 
Argentina
Local time: 04:26
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
| One vision has been presented | Oct 4, 2003 |
laca wrote:
Isn’t St. Jerome Day a form of worshipping the patron saint? The topic is clearly controversial.
Ewa
Thank you Ewa for helping us understand the reason for some objections. So there is a line of controversy that rejects not just St. Jerome's image but any image.
Just on the same spirit of learning from each other, what do these holy books and teachings say about non-muslims (or non-jews) owning images, or showing them to the public?
On the other hand I sense that there is at least a second current of rejection that opposses not just any image but the choice of St. Jerome's. In this case it would be nice to read about these alternatives, just to broaden our commos vision.
Regards,
Enrique
[Edited at 2003-10-04 13:24]
| | | | Ouadoud
Local time: 10:26
English to Arabic
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| Rainbow of opinions | Oct 4, 2003 |
laca wrote:
Muslims wanted art to have a religious character. ....
The Jewish religion completely and absolutely prohibits the reproduction of scenes. ....
Ewa[/quote]
Dear peers,
I thank Ewa for this authoritative approach of the theme of the figurative representation in the so-called “revealed religions”.. Nevertheless and as you can see it, it only speaks about the Muslim and the Jewish approaches and forgets the Christian one.
Allow me to remind it.
In the eve of Christianity, figurative representations were forbidden (exactly as in Jewish and Muslim ones). Evident proofs may be seen studying the Paleo-Christian art (Early Christian). And we have in Tunisia excellent examples of this art, since Tunisia is the land of Carthage (Saint Cyprianus, Saint Agustinus, Donat, Apuleo etc) The patterns of the Paleo-Christian art are only floral, geometric or calligraphic.
Later, the Church made what was officially called “a pious concession”. They would allow figurative patterns only if they had a religious meaning or utility. From that time, early Christians started to use figures in the funerary arts (mosaics covering tombs, entrances to catacombs..) and in churches, chapels, and basilicas. Some centuries later, figurative arts developed reproducing all aspects of ordinary life and so on…
So as you can see, the original Christian doctrine does not allow figurative representation, as the original Jewish and the Muslim ones.. Most probably to contain the pagan and polytheistic currents (fond of images) and spread the worship of just one god.
Now, as a conclusive appendix to my postings, allow me please this last address: My first posting has nothing against figurative art (in general and) in Christian religion, Islam allows it nowadays (when it’s used for education or esthetics and clearly not for worshipping..)
I was (indirectly perhaps, and very unjustly surely) accused of intolerance. I think that there was more intolerance in the reactions to my posting that in my posting itself.
I did not give tolerance, I gave more: respect. Tolerance is considered by many (myself included) as not very respectful. It underlies certain superiority: the tolerant is better than the tolerated; he makes him the present of tolerance. No thanks!
I appreciated very much the poster who said: we’re all human beings and we’re all translators, this is an excellent program for the linguists we are and surely a beautiful motto!
Respect is what we need, respect of other people’s beliefs, and respect of other people opinions. Respect means equality and justice and human dignity. No one is the best, no culture is the best, no civilization is the best, no race is the best and no religion is the best. Each has his choices in the full respect of other’s choices.
And if you take time to re-read my posting, you’ll notice it starts with these words: “dear José, with all the respect I owe….”
So my posting has nothing to do with anti-Christian or anti-Saint Jerome or anti-anything; it’s pro-dialogue, bringing to this site a wider rainbow of colors and opinions…
Salaam to all the goodwilling translators of this and the other world,
Abdelouadoud
[Edited at 2003-10-04 23:41]
| | | | two2tango
Argentina
Local time: 04:26
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
| A respectful view | Oct 5, 2003 |
Ouadoud wrote:
Now, as a conclusive appendix to my postings, allow me please this last address: My first posting has nothing against figurative art (in general and) in Christian religion, Islam allows it nowadays (when it’s used for education or esthetics and clearly not for worshipping..)
I was (indirectly perhaps, and very unjustly surely) accused of intolerance. I think that there was more intolerance in the reactions to my posting that in my posting itself.
I did not give tolerance, I gave more: respect. Tolerance is considered by many (myself included) as not very respectful. It underlies certain superiority: the tolerant is better than the tolerated; he makes him the present of tolerance. No thanks!
I appreciated very much the poster who said: we’re all human beings and we’re all translators, this is an excellent program for the linguists we are and surely a beautiful motto!
Respect is what we need, respect of other people’s beliefs, and respect of other people opinions. Respect means equality and justice and human dignity. No one is the best, no culture is the best, no civilization is the best, no race is the best and no religion is the best. Each has his choices in the full respect of other’s choices.
And if you take time to re-read my posting, you’ll notice it starts with these words: “dear José, with all the respect I owe….”
So my posting has nothing to do with anti-Christian or anti-Saint Jerome or anti-anything; it’s pro-dialogue, bringing to this site a wider rainbow of colors and opinions…
Salaam to all the goodwilling translators of this and the other world,
Abdelouadoud
Dear Abdelouadoud,
I fully agree to your position of respecting the dignity of all human beings and their cultures, beliefs, ethnic differences, languages, etc.
I feel comfortable with the word "tolerance", but if we give it the narrower meaning you see in it, then I will settle for your choice of "respect" instead.
I don't se a trace of disrespect in any of your postings. To be honest I also fail to see charges of intolerance raised against it.
The intolerance I see in this case lies in the attitude of the members who, instead of sharing their views here, pressured privately (lots and lots of mails) the firs forum's moderator, driving her to ask José to remove his original contribution.
Peace on Earth to all men and women of goo will!
Enrique
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| Let's celebrate ALL special days | Nov 5, 2003 |
It's hard to add anything new to this discussion, but I'd like to repeat my invitation (as a Christian Protestant) to translators of other faiths to let us know what inspires them.
Only God can know who the real saints are, and many of them have certainly never reached the attention of the authorities.
We all need symbols and inspiration. By suppressing them and pretending they don't exist, we place ourselves on a level with the most repressive regimes in history.
... See more It's hard to add anything new to this discussion, but I'd like to repeat my invitation (as a Christian Protestant) to translators of other faiths to let us know what inspires them.
Only God can know who the real saints are, and many of them have certainly never reached the attention of the authorities.
We all need symbols and inspiration. By suppressing them and pretending they don't exist, we place ourselves on a level with the most repressive regimes in history.
Mentioning what helps us does not force others to agree, but it offers them a new perspective. Many of us did find the story of St. Jerome inspiring, and I wrote that I would love to read about inspiration from other faiths. Thanks to those who have added their pieces to the mosaic.
Last week I turned on the radio in the middle of a programme and heard a Muslim speaking of Ramadan. At first I thought it was a Christian speaking as we did of the Christian season of Lent, of the discipline and benefits of fasting. Then he mentioned that it was the beginning of Ramadan - and I remembered that Advent is on its way.
It brought home to me that in spite of our many differences, we also have much in common.
By bringing both sides out into the open, we can learn more about each other, and agree to differ where we must. None of us are perfect, and none of us can know the whole truth, but by sharing our common humanity we can help each other in tolerance and peace.
As the Irish comedian Dave Allen used to say:
'May your God go with you! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Özden Arıkan
Germany
Local time: 09:26
Member
English to Turkish
+ ...
I am sure you all would have been polite enough not to tell me how you found this theory: I am from a country where cats enjoy a special popularity as domestic pets. And this happens to be a Muslim country. On the other hand, the country where I am located in at this point in my life has a Christian population. And these folks all have dogs. My poor tomcat Rudi the Kedi is all alone in the neighborhood. I guess in the collective unconscious mind of these Christians, cats are still associated wit... See more I am sure you all would have been polite enough not to tell me how you found this theory: I am from a country where cats enjoy a special popularity as domestic pets. And this happens to be a Muslim country. On the other hand, the country where I am located in at this point in my life has a Christian population. And these folks all have dogs. My poor tomcat Rudi the Kedi is all alone in the neighborhood. I guess in the collective unconscious mind of these Christians, cats are still associated with the familiars of medieval witches. Now I understand why they all have dogs!
With all due respect to all the posters and with all my earnestness in underlining that my intention is neither to be provocative, nor to rekindle the flame of controversy, I cannot help but ask: is it really so difficult to accept that no single culture can have a monopoly over our world of references, that we need to find "anthropological" explanations to a response which has been seeking self-expression in a democratic and quite decent way in this forum? And if Jerome the Christian Saint and the Bible Translator has nothing to do with the Christian culture, how come Ouadoud's response is connected to the fact that he belongs to a Muslim population - and especially when there are several other members representing the same line of thinking who don't seem to be from Muslim cultures?
To provide some more detail to those that might be interested: yes, a ban had been put on images in Islam, though I wonder if it could ever be possible to fully observe it in practice. The conceptual basis of this ban is the taboo of shirq (I kindly ask Ouadoud to correct it if my transliteration is wrong), that is "sharing the power of God": re-creating (making an image of) what God has already created amounts to blasphemy as an attempt to have a share in His power of creation, for Islam is the strictest of all revealed religions in its conception of monotheism. According to some Byzantine historians this ban was also the main inspirational force behind the iconoclastic movement in Byzantium, and as we -or I- now learn from one of the later postings, similar bans had been the case in other branches of Christianity and in Judaism.
Now, where do we go from here, if image amounts to blasphemy in Islam (and so does revering saints, by the way, for God alone is capable of working miracles)? In the history of my country the sultans who also bore the title of Caliph -the spiritual leader of all Muslims, that is- from the 15th century on, had all had their portraits painted. Well, we may not be the historical originators and orthodox representatives of Islam, though -after all, we even have saints!- but all Islamic populations have television broadcast, sculptures of national figures, photo IDs, etc. And despite the fact that my icon doesn't look like anything God might have created, Ouadoud has his own picture in his profile. In what extent has "Thou shallt love thy neighbour" been internalized in our deeds that a religious ban would provide the background for understanding a response?
The main point we are missing here in all this anthropologically oriented interest is that this thread has eventually turned so unfair against Jose, against Ouadoud, and against our forums. This is a thread Jose started, so he had the right to publish anything - anything not in violation of the site rules, as would go without saying. And any other member would have a right to add their comment. Ouadoud's point was not only expressed in a pretty decent and respectful way, but also was right and apt. To openly express the underlying tension here: Christian West cannot have a monopolized right to define symbols, references, representatives of humanity and translators are among the groups that have a special responsibility to be wary of such biases. Jose also put forward his own point of view in response to Ouadoud and others in a most civilized and respectful way. We could have continued exchanging views and arguments on this in the same line. But Jose was forced, oh, ok, had to choose, to delete his initial post. And unfortunately the distinction between Ouadoud and those who privately e-mailed the moderator was blurred. The moderator could have invited those who e-mailed her to join the forum or start a new thread instead. What really suffers here is the very idea of forum being compromised in order to appease those who chose to exert pressure privately. Shame!
What we need, I believe, for a true conviviality, in the original sense of the word, is to multiply and exchange our windows, and also to understand that the world doesn't fit in any one of them. We all have a view of it in front of us, mistakenly believing, most of the time, that its the view of the whole world. But once in a while we need to step back away from our windows. Then we can see the frame that has been bordering our view, and we can realize that what fitted in the frame a minute ago was our face only, not the world itself. Stepping back like this we come to see the other windows, endless ones, and we also see a thick wall on which each window, bordering our view and separating us from the world itself has been carved. Sometimes it's good to step back to extend our view and also to open a window to let in some fresh air instead of demolishing the wall. ▲ Collapse
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