| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Poll: Should translation be a regulated profession? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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| Why two foreign languages???? | Oct 27, 2006 |
Williamson wrote:
A knowledge of at least two foreign languages combined with say a knowledge of accounting, financial management, marketing is a good starting-point both for freelance translation and/or a regular job/career.
[Edited at 2006-10-27 08:01]
Why on earth should a translator have to have a knowledge of two foreign languages? I only translate from Italian to English: in what way could a knowledge of German, for example, conceivably improve my translations?
I voted "no", as I believe our industry is impossible to regulate on a worldwide level and national regulation would be pointless (as any unregistered/ "unqualified" translators could pick up work in other countries anyway).
I also don't believe that having a certificate to wave around is proof of translation ability anyway (no, I don't have one - I have no qualifications in Italian or in translation whatsoever). There are plenty of ProZ users with impeccable qualifications who can't even write an intelligible sentence in what they purport to be their mother tongue, let alone translate something from another language - I'm sure we all know some.
I judge the quality of my work on return custom and - most importantly of all - the willingness of other translators in my field, whom I respect professionally, to work with me, recommend me to their clients and be associated professionally with me. In other words, the proof of my translation abilities lies in the professional esteem in which others hold me.
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 12:54
English to Russian
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| The uniqueness of the profession | Oct 27, 2006 |
Williamson wrote:
But then most institutes for translators (and interpreters) should adapt their curriculum and status and besides language training, they should offer specialist courses, be it of an economic, technical,...... nature.
Dear Williamson, you can't be serious claiming that a linguist can turn technical specialist after some "technical courses". What could that be anyway? I tried to take some. A complete waste of time. Some academic gurues who have never stepped on the floor of the oil rig? Show me the courses that will educate me in oil well completion in 2-3 months. Practice leads us from one level to another. Occasional lectures or seminars in the relevant fields given by reputable provider are great, we lead a normal life of educated people wishing to stay up to speed, right? But in the end it is up to our clients and the market to decide. After interpreting a 3-day workshop for petroleum industry I shall learn tenfold. Provided that I already have enough in my head to accept such assignment in the first place.
Bridge construction project involves practical knowledge of electrical, mechanical, thermal control, stress analysis, material handling bla-bla-bla issues plus legal and financial, insurance and customs, sometimes all in one document. How many specialists would I need to hire to avoid legal consequences?
This world is full of no-goods with tons of credentials and degrees in any discipline, which, in my view, is the best proof that the degree itself is not a solution.
I certainly agree that any additional education and any degree is great. Yet, with all due respect I'm quite puzzled by your continuous overformalistic approach. This attitude reminds me of some professors who would not know how to survive 3 days in the real world outside of their classroom where they play Gods safely. I hope this does not sound offensive in any way. If so, I apologize.
Irene
[Edited at 2006-10-27 13:12]
[Edited at 2006-10-27 14:34]
| | | | Richard Creech 
United States
Local time: 13:54
French to English
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| Regulation Limits Geographic Scope | Oct 27, 2006 |
Remember that regulation typically limits the geographic area in which people may work. In the United States, for example, professional regulation is done by each state, and a professional who wishes to practice in multiple states must obtain a separate license from each such state, which can be a difficult, time-consuming and expensive process. A doctor or lawyer who can practice in New York can not cross the river to work in New Jersey without obtaining a separate license, which may require ... See more Remember that regulation typically limits the geographic area in which people may work. In the United States, for example, professional regulation is done by each state, and a professional who wishes to practice in multiple states must obtain a separate license from each such state, which can be a difficult, time-consuming and expensive process. A doctor or lawyer who can practice in New York can not cross the river to work in New Jersey without obtaining a separate license, which may require taking additional training (requirements different), several years, and thousands of dollars. If you have a hard time getting work now, imagine if you could only perform translation projects in the State of North Carolina! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It is a very complecated issue | Oct 27, 2006 |
The same as Irene I am sure that there are no international regulations possible. So it depends upon the country. I voted yes, because it would have sence in my country, in Germany. We have a number of proffesions, which are regulated by law, for example any kind of craftmen. As a consequence it leads to a very high price level. As far as only a selected number of them are permitted to practice the job, they can maintain higher prices. As for translators, there are lot of illegals from the Easte... See more The same as Irene I am sure that there are no international regulations possible. So it depends upon the country. I voted yes, because it would have sence in my country, in Germany. We have a number of proffesions, which are regulated by law, for example any kind of craftmen. As a consequence it leads to a very high price level. As far as only a selected number of them are permitted to practice the job, they can maintain higher prices. As for translators, there are lot of illegals from the Eastern Europe (for my language combination) who lower the prices and the quality.
The other question is with which criteria we install these regulations. They dont have to be too formal. This can be a concept, elaborated by tranlator organizations. ▲ Collapse
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Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 19:54
Italian to English
In memoriam | The pros and cons of regulation | Oct 27, 2006 |
Williamson wrote:
A pilot has to earn an ATPL (airline transport pilot license) and built up logged hours before (s)he can fly at a commercial airline.
A lawyer has to study law and pass the bar-exam before being allowed to practise.
An M.D. has to graduate at med.school before he can call himself M.D. and practise medicine.
This holds sway for a lot of professions, like pharmacists, vets,....
This might be an argument for the regulation of legal translation (by bar associations), medical translation (by medical associations) or even plumbing translation (by the introduction of a translation option to plumbing qualifications?), and it's certainly why I pass on legal, medical and plumbing work to colleagues who enjoy it. But I don't think it could usefully be extended to translation in general.
Many fields, like marketing or literature, require writing and research skills, as well as an above-average level of general knowledge, which are more easily - and cheaply - gauged from a professional track record.
And of course, cost is a crucial factor in any such regulation. Those who are qualified will want to be rewarded for the effort involved in gaining qualification. They will also be in a position - if they are "ethically elastic" - to farm out work to the unqualified, whose translations may not be easy to salvage. In the end, the customer may be paying top dollar for a substandard product.
FWIW
Giles
PS Why should a professional translator have to know only two foreign languages? I have qualifications at various levels in four modern and two ancient languages, all of which are useful to me when I am translating Italian (a language in which I have no formal qualifications of any description whatsoever).
| | | | Robert Zawadzki (X)
Local time: 19:54
English to Polish
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| I answered NO, but... | Oct 27, 2006 |
It is perhaps not a unique Polish experience that any regulation leads to corruption and ultimately lowering overall quality.
It would be great if some morals were involved: I never translate madical stuff when I feel that someone else can do it better, and my mistakes can lead to someone getting hurt. But how to formally measure such a feeling? I have proofread translations done by people that were medical professionals and their translations were based on deep knowledge, yet unde... See more It is perhaps not a unique Polish experience that any regulation leads to corruption and ultimately lowering overall quality.
It would be great if some morals were involved: I never translate madical stuff when I feel that someone else can do it better, and my mistakes can lead to someone getting hurt. But how to formally measure such a feeling? I have proofread translations done by people that were medical professionals and their translations were based on deep knowledge, yet understandable probably only to the authors.
I do not see the way to implement any formal scheme and only hope that people inserting some apparatus into my veins and driving it towards my heart will not get all they knowledge from a translation done by a greedy translator working for an ousourcer sensitive only to price (and a deadline was not-so-crazy). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:54
Flemish to English
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| Explanation and a point of view | Oct 27, 2006 |
Why 2 foreign languages:
It is/was common practise for anybody attending at 4 year's, nowadays 5 year's translation/interpreting training to choose 2 foreign languages, one of which had to be a so-called A-language: English, French, German combined with another A-language or a B-language: Dutch, Danish, Russian, Spanish, Italian, Greek, nowadays also Polish or Hungarian.
I agree that an ounce of practise is worth more than tons of theory.
But tell me: how could... See more Why 2 foreign languages:
It is/was common practise for anybody attending at 4 year's, nowadays 5 year's translation/interpreting training to choose 2 foreign languages, one of which had to be a so-called A-language: English, French, German combined with another A-language or a B-language: Dutch, Danish, Russian, Spanish, Italian, Greek, nowadays also Polish or Hungarian.
I agree that an ounce of practise is worth more than tons of theory.
But tell me: how could I offer translation from Spanish>Dutch for if I never took the trouble to study Spanish and to assimilate its structure and vocabulary?
Of course, going to Spain often and living in Castilla helped a lot.
For those who think that it is not necesary to study a language, I tried it the other way around.
I looked for a Russian girl-friend and tried to learn Russian that way. The result is that I have assimilated vocabulary, can read Russian a little, but do not find time to study the skeleton of the language, i.e.grammar.
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In the opinion of some "translators", attending schools for translators and interpreters are a waste of time and regulation of the profession is not required. If after 1040 hours of class in each foreign language, you have not yet mastered the basics and more, don't translate. The rest is experience you built up over the years.
Let everybody become a translator overnight.
The result of that point of view is that people who run into trouble, because they think they are professional translators, but it is obvious from their writings that they do not dominate their target-language (be it native or not), are asking for help here (Kudoz, Forums).
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With regard to specialist translations, asking for advise from others (engineers, doctors, ...) never hurts.
The task of a translator is not to put up a building, it's to translate a text about it with help from a construction engineer.
Some input from Canada would be welcome.
Correct me if I am mistaken, but in Canada, if you want to work for the "Translation Bureau" of the Canadian Government, you need to have a degree in translation and passed exams of the local association.
Anybody, who wants to participate in an E.U-call-for-tender has to have either a degree in translation and translated a thousand pages in the subject matter or have a degree in the subject matter and deliver proof that (s)he has translated a lesser number of pages.
In both cases, if you are not qualified, you don't get the jobs.
Another consideration:
Does the fact that the profession of translator is not regulated and equals survival of the smartest not result in the general public looking down on translation and frowning their eyebrows when you tell them that you are 'a translator'.
The contrary is true for interpreting. The general public thinks of it like it is a kind of magic.
[Edited at 2006-10-27 18:21] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 12:54
English to Russian
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| Language study | Oct 27, 2006 |
I certainly agree re. basic language studies. I didn't mean that one can become a translator without ever opening a single grammar book.
In my native country foreign language was a mandatory subject in all comprehensive schools during Soviet times. Primarily English or German. Training scope and flow were quite poor, 2 hours a week on average, and in view of many, school management including, it was not a "major" discipline compared to, say, Russian or math. Then there have also bee... See more I certainly agree re. basic language studies. I didn't mean that one can become a translator without ever opening a single grammar book.
In my native country foreign language was a mandatory subject in all comprehensive schools during Soviet times. Primarily English or German. Training scope and flow were quite poor, 2 hours a week on average, and in view of many, school management including, it was not a "major" discipline compared to, say, Russian or math. Then there have also been special language schools, EN, GR, FR or SP mostly, some of which had also taught "minor" foreign language on top of the prime one. In my case it was English with French as a second language. In these schools things got much more serious - at least 6 hours of language training a week, tough homework, an extensive course on old and modern English and American literature. We had visiting teachers from England and USA who would teach us for 2-4 weeks, which was quite a WOW in Soviet times. For those lessons a regular class would be divided in 3 groups, no more than 10 students in each, we had days when we had no right to speak Russian:-), we practiced translating limerics, 80% of materials posted on school blueboards were in English. Mind it, most "regular" subjects teachers did not speak English at all. We had drama classes in English, worked as St. Petersburg city tour guides etc. It was fun, fun, fun!
English at school, history at the university... Income steadily rotates about the low end of a 6-digit series in the fields of oil, gas and real-time manned space exploration... Shoot me:-)
Best,
Irene
[Edited at 2006-10-27 18:44] ▲ Collapse
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| Studying a language cannot be equated with having a qualification in that language | Oct 27, 2006 |
Of course I've studied Italian: my (Italian) partner says that my knowledge of its grammar surpasses that of most Italians (although that doesn't stop me making basic errors that no native would make). I studied at home using interactive CD courses and old-fashioned grammar books; I picked up the rhythm and vocab (and a good deal of Romano) by living and working in Rome; I took some private lessons when I was already at a pretty advanced level to get to grips with the congiuntivo and passato rem... See more Of course I've studied Italian: my (Italian) partner says that my knowledge of its grammar surpasses that of most Italians (although that doesn't stop me making basic errors that no native would make). I studied at home using interactive CD courses and old-fashioned grammar books; I picked up the rhythm and vocab (and a good deal of Romano) by living and working in Rome; I took some private lessons when I was already at a pretty advanced level to get to grips with the congiuntivo and passato remoto. Studying a language is in no way the same thing as having a qualification in it. And IMO no regulation in the world can tell you whether a translator is really worth his or her salt, although it might be possible to weed out the lowest of the low.
It also has to be borne in mind that a decent medical translator may not be able to turn out a marketing translation: I know I can't. So what are you going to do? Regulate each *type* of translation? I've registered as a medical translator so I'm not allowed to do a general text on whatever subject with no specialist language? Or the alternative: Fred Bloggs has registered as a medical translator so feels entitled to take on legal or financial translations?
Regulation can do nothing but weed out the very worst (and I doubt it would even do that, bearing in mind the national/international regulation issue I mentioned in my previous post): it will do nothing to stop the unscrupulous from getting registered in one subject area and offering translations in others in which they are completely incapable.
[Edited at 2006-10-27 19:36] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 19:54
Italian to English
In memoriam | Quality matters more than qualifications | Oct 27, 2006 |
Williamson wrote:
Correct me if I am mistaken, but in Canada, if you want to work for the "Translation Bureau" of the Canadian Government, you need to have a degree in translation and passed exams of the local association.
Anybody, who wants to participate in an E.U-call-for-tender has to have either a degree in translation and translated a thousand pages in the subject matter or have a degree in the subject matter and deliver proof that (s)he has translated a lesser number of pages.
In both cases, if you are not qualified, you don't get the jobs.
Yes, you do.
You just have to wait until they are subcontracted, perhaps through ProZ Jobs, and accept whatever rate the appoved translator is offering
But the point is that it is neither the supplier (translator) nor the regulatory system (although any regulation will tend to create an unproductive economic rent of the type outlined above) that matters: it is the quality of the product (the translation).
And the market - not government or suppliers associations, which have other, legitimate, roles to play - is the most objective judge of quality, especially when it has a full spectrum of products to choose from.
FWIW
Giles
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:54
Flemish to English
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| Proof required. | Oct 27, 2006 |
Giles Watson wrote: Yes, you do. You just have to wait until they are subcontracted, perhaps through ProZ Jobs, and accept whatever rate the appoved translator is offering
No, you don't. There have been agencies "expanding their database in view of participating in a call for tender" recruiting through Proz and they simply copied the E.U.'s translation service requirements.
The result was a childish reaction on the forums: "Why do they need to know all these data? Why do they need a copy of my degree. I am a professional translator, so I do not need to prove myself".
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If you do not study a language, you will never earn a formal qualification (M.A.) in that language. Mind you, I do not swear by class-room only. It has been 26 years ago since I learnt my first word of Spanish. I still remember that I wanted to buy some peaches. Having grown up with French, I uttered the French word for peaches only to get "no comprendo" as a reply. I looked up the word in a dictionary and have never forgotten it. You have to go or live in a country where the language you learn is spoken.
No, not regulate every type of translation. Either you are in favour of the Canadian approach and require some formal credential or you are in favour of the free market, which will regulate itself.
Whatever kind of translation: "I" am not an egotripper. Working together with a professional (m/f) of the topic of the text, I can handle more texts than I am able to handle when working alone.
FWIW.
[Edited at 2006-10-27 21:51]
| | | | Latin_Hellas (X)
United States
Local time: 19:54
Italian to English
+ ...
| Customer decides quality/price ratio, not a fantasy regulator | Oct 27, 2006 |
Marie-Helene and Giles have made some important points.
To put it in another way, translation is a customer-driven business: it is up to each customer to decide its own level of regulation, meaning the ratio between quality and price.
If one customer thinks that a certificate or diploma is a requisite for quality, that its business, if another puts more value in experience in a certain field, that's its business.
With experience, and based o... See more Marie-Helene and Giles have made some important points.
To put it in another way, translation is a customer-driven business: it is up to each customer to decide its own level of regulation, meaning the ratio between quality and price.
If one customer thinks that a certificate or diploma is a requisite for quality, that its business, if another puts more value in experience in a certain field, that's its business.
With experience, and based on its own needs, each customer will decide where the balance between quality and price lies.
If a court or the EU, for example, requires certain diplomas and certificates, that's its business. If a European company with operations in China seeks a translator to do manuals at 3 cents per word, and it is satisfied with the price/quality ratio, that's their business. If a particular translator doesn't like the price, he/she can refuse to even consider the job.
If the translator resident in Peru, for example, can do a job at a lower price than one resident in the US, for example, at a level of quality that satisfies the customer, that's their business.
One of the beauties of the translations business is its flexibility and even its creative chaos. Another reason people often cite for being a translator is not having a boss. Do people really think, then, that a majority of translators would accept a regulator? And how would such a regulator enforce regulations on a global scale: the United Nations barely works on huge issues like nuclear proliferation or even genocide, for example, in comparison to which attempting to regulate the translation business seems rather petty.
So, yes, local regulations may work, like at courts or maybe even at a national level in some countries. But the best level of regulation is at the most local level, that between the customer and the translator.
The idea of a global regulator for the translation business is a fantasy or perhaps even a nightmare: it would probably only work under a totalitarian world government that forcibly imposed the use of one language on the society it governed.
Flexibility and a little bit of chaos are fundamental to freedom. I have lived in countries with high levels of centralized regulation, and the result is often sheer boredom. What can be worse than that? The Land of Babel, after all, is not so bad. ▲ Collapse
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Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 19:54
Italian to English
In memoriam | In the real world | Oct 28, 2006 |
Williamson wrote: Giles Watson wrote: Yes, you do. You just have to wait until they are subcontracted, perhaps through ProZ Jobs, and accept whatever rate the appoved translator is offering No, you don't. There have been agencies "expanding their database in view of participating in a call for tender" recruiting through Proz and they simply copied the E.U.'s translation service requirements.
I beg to differ. I have seen work, explicitly described as for the EU, offered (can't remember if it was on ProZ) at far less than the rates paid by reputable agencies. Whether this is common practice or not is beside the point, which is that there doesn't seem to be much to stop the ethically elastic from taking advantage of the economic rent deriving from approval. I am not suggesting that the EU, or any other organisation, should not have an approved list of suppliers, merely that its critieria for selection and quality control are probably suboptimal.
The result was a childish reaction on the forums: "Why do they need to know all these data? Why do they need a copy of my degree. I am a professional translator, so I do not need to prove myself".
In a marketplace, you are forced to prove yourself every day. You are only as good as your last job, no matter how many bits of paper you may have accumulated to say that you can pass exams.
And the ones who have to tell you they're professionals probably aren't
Best,
Giles
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 19:54
Spanish to English
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| Native translators do it better | Oct 28, 2006 |
[quote]Williamson wrote:
"... overnight translators screaming ... that one should translate into their native language only."
As one of the above, and proud of it, I must disagree if what you are suggesting is that exams/degrees or other "official" titles make for a better translator, as on the basis of many examples of work I have seen by non-native "official" translators, I can assure you that they do not.
I regularly do work for "traductores jurados" in Spain who, although entitled to charge 3 or 4 times my average rates for translations because they have an "official" qualification, are quite frankly unable to draft a single paragraph without mistakes of one kind or another, or at the very least a "foreign" feel to the text.
Native is obviously best, and if regulation means that I would be unable to work as I do nowadays without the expense and rigmarole of obtaining some kind of specialist licence, then I should have voted NO instead of "it depends".
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 19:54
Spanish to English
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In what way could a knowledge of German, for example, conceivably improve my translations?
I believe that the more knowledge you have of language (and languages) in general considerably enriches your general ability as a translator.
Especially in European languages, there is a lot of interplay, and my studies of French, German and Russian have all helped my in some way at one time or another, even though 95% of my work is translating from Spanish to English, which is a... See more In what way could a knowledge of German, for example, conceivably improve my translations?
I believe that the more knowledge you have of language (and languages) in general considerably enriches your general ability as a translator.
Especially in European languages, there is a lot of interplay, and my studies of French, German and Russian have all helped my in some way at one time or another, even though 95% of my work is translating from Spanish to English, which is after all a bastard language. ▲ Collapse
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