| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Poll: Should translation be a regulated profession? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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Jaroslaw Michalak 
Poland
Local time: 19:10
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | Linguistic education and linguistic competence | Oct 28, 2006 |
I am quite surprised that people praising the merits of language education (for the record: I have one myself) do not mention the translator's own language. If formal education of grammar, linguistic structure, vocabulary etc. is so important and most of translators translate into their native language, shouldn't they have a degree in that language, too? After all, all they have to do with the foreign text is to understand it, but they have to produce the text in their own language... Yet every ... See more I am quite surprised that people praising the merits of language education (for the record: I have one myself) do not mention the translator's own language. If formal education of grammar, linguistic structure, vocabulary etc. is so important and most of translators translate into their native language, shouldn't they have a degree in that language, too? After all, all they have to do with the foreign text is to understand it, but they have to produce the text in their own language... Yet every translator feel absolutely competent in that respect, although often their native language training is limited to high-school education, which is, one must admit, not very deep. Translation/interpreting schools do not concern themselves with native languages too much, either...
To take it further, lack of proper credentials in native language is quite common among people dealing with it. If you take the ten best writers in your language, most of them probably did not have formal linguistic education. Even if you consider people who are writing more technical stuff, you might find that they would fail most of regulation requirements. I know several people who are writing technical documentation - some of them have technical degrees, some of them have not; but certainly none of them has both technical education and lingustic education. And yet they are able to do their job and, what is more important, nobody would even think to impose on them nationwide regulations...
[Edited at 2006-10-28 11:43] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 14:10
English to Spanish
+ ...
Jabberwock wrote:
Yet every translator feel absolutely competent in that respect, although often their native language training is limited to high-school education, which is, one must admit, not very deep. Translation/interpreting schools do not concern themselves with native languages too much, either...
I couldn't agree more. I graduated in 1982 (Traductor Público being a university degree you get after 4/5 years at the university), but have never stopped studying since then.
A couple of years ago, I felt I needed to know more Spanish, so I started a two-year course and have recently graduated as Copy Editor & Proofreader (Spanish language).
Is this enough? No. Apart from having decided to join the first (small!) group of translators registering for the recently opened Master's degree at Universidad de Buenos Aires, I attend as many conferences, seminars and workshops as I can.
Although I see many colleagues share this greed for knowledge, the majority prefers to sit comfortably admiring their diplomas (the one they received 20 years ago) on the wall. That diploma is not enough.
By the way, this is the national law (20305) that regulates my profession.
http://www.traductores.org.ar/nuevo/home/ley/?id_ruta=1&nivel2=8&nivel3=9&mes=
Au
[Editado a las 2006-10-28 12:36]
| | | | df49f (X)
France
Local time: 19:10
| yes you do.... | Oct 28, 2006 |
Williamson wrote: Giles Watson wrote: Yes, you do. You just have to wait until they are subcontracted, perhaps through ProZ Jobs, and accept whatever rate the appoved translator is offering  No, you don't. There have been agencies "expanding their database in view of participating in a call for tender" recruiting through Proz and they simply copied the E.U.'s translation service requirements.
oh yes you do!: Gilles is absolutely right!
These agencies ask us for qualifications and references ONLY to use in the TENDER and qualify as bidders. Then if they get the EU contract, they forget all about the really competent experienced (with or without diploma) professionals who were naive enough to send their top references and qualifications and were instrumental in their winning the tender, and they outsource the actual work to anybody else who'll work for rock-bottom rates however unqualified, incompetent and inexperienced.
Plus: no diploma or official qualifications/credentials has ever made a good translator. Since any regulation system would necessarily use a diploma as a minimum basis (e.g. EU, OECD, UN...), this would in no way guarantee quality (I know many many translators and interpreters with diplomas from the 2 "prestigious" Institutes in Paris, plus many more from the translating/interpreting school at the local catholic university in my city, who are and always will be at best mediocre and at worse worthless).
Despite this knowledge, based on real experience and real encounters, I voted NO regulator. In "freelance", there's "free"... As an independent freelancing professional, I don't need or want yet one more gendarme telling me how I can earn my living, under the guise of "protecting" me. I need no protecting and the market (or rather marketS because we don't all play on the same playing field!) regulates itself and makes the difference on its own between the wheat and the chaff, no need for a global or even national regulator in the freelance market. Very simple: either I'm a good translator and I'll get a lot of work at high rates, from repeat clients (direct and/or serious reliable agencies, not fly-by-night bottom-feeders) who recommend me to other good clients and I'll earn a LOT of money, or I'm a bad translator and I'll keep scratching and begging forever for work at cheap rates with unreliable low/non-paying "agencies" and be lucky if I can scrape up the equivalent of minimum wage. This is exactly what I have observed in both translating and interpreting for the past 20 years in my country.
dominique
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:10
Flemish to English
+ ...
| A free-self regulating market : Mind your own business | Oct 28, 2006 |
[Quote] Translation/interpreting schools do not concern themselves with native languages too much, either...[\Quote]
I leave it up to others to judge whether a total of 360 hours (grammar, spelling, syntax,...) of native language instruction are not enough?
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In Europe, there is a regulatory body.
Not for the translation business, but for a lot of other aspects of our daily lives: from the butter on the bread you eat to airline traffic-control.
Th... See more [Quote] Translation/interpreting schools do not concern themselves with native languages too much, either...[\Quote]
I leave it up to others to judge whether a total of 360 hours (grammar, spelling, syntax,...) of native language instruction are not enough?
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In Europe, there is a regulatory body.
Not for the translation business, but for a lot of other aspects of our daily lives: from the butter on the bread you eat to airline traffic-control.
That regulatory body is the European Commission. It could easily issue a guideline with regard to "Quality in Translation". They have the inhouse experience. A total of 429 possible language combinations are used in the E.U.-institutions and just about every subject is dealt with.
This will be refuted by the quality of their translations, but don't we all consult their databases from time to time.
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Not only agencies bid for calls for tender. If you go through the list of the E.U.-external-translation service, there are some individuals on that list too. If they did not meet the criteria, they would not win the tender and if I am not mistaken there is a clause in the tender that if you do not deliver up to the required standards, you don't get paid.
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But let's look at the pro/con-regulation question from another angle:
If it is a translation jungle, then why shouldn't I translate in the languages I want. Why critisize me, if I translate into a language which is not my mother-tongue? After all, it is a free deregulated, chaotical and competitive market.
As long as I can offer quality and satisfy my customer's demand, who are you (I do not mean a specific person, but the partisans of translation into the native language) to dictate in which language I should translate? Mind your own business.
By the way, I admire my diploma so much that I called a worthless piece of t....t- paper. When I did a member no longer present on this site or any other site for translators, MA, fully certified etc... called me "mentally ill" and advised me to see a shrink.
Looking back to 1982, if I had know then what I know now, I wouldn't be a member of this site, for I would have chosen another direction in life with a much higher ROI than translation. But it is no use crying over spilt milk. I can only try to specialize in certain subjects (non-linguistic) by attending evening-classes at university.
[Edited at 2006-10-28 16:08] ▲ Collapse
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Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 14:10
English to Spanish
+ ...
df49f wrote:
Plus: no diploma or official qualifications/credentials has ever made a good translator.
You are absolutely right. One of the best translators I have met in my life has no academic background. Diplomas guarantee nothing.
| | | | | Regulation, Qualifications or proof of ability | Oct 28, 2006 |
Someone above said:- "You are only as good as your last job, no matter how many bits of paper you may have accumulated to say that you can pass exams".
We are getting mixed up between regulations and qualifications. I know regulation has to start somewhere and what better place to start than ask "Is this translator qualified to translate?" this document from Spanish to English, for example. First thought, native English, but which qualification in English? Good English translators m... See more Someone above said:- "You are only as good as your last job, no matter how many bits of paper you may have accumulated to say that you can pass exams".
We are getting mixed up between regulations and qualifications. I know regulation has to start somewhere and what better place to start than ask "Is this translator qualified to translate?" this document from Spanish to English, for example. First thought, native English, but which qualification in English? Good English translators must have a good command of their native language, up to at least good marks at "A" level in the UK, in English Language. They also have to have studied their source language to at least the same level. This would give them good linguistic skills, but not the knowledge to be able to translate legal, medical, and technical documents. This is practical or research experience and has to be gained in the field.
I have one piece of paper from the UK which certifies that I have a high level of knowledge of the English language, another that I am a BSc in Biomedical Sciences, and one from Spain saying that I have reached excellence in Spanish Language at Superior level. These are my stepping stones to translation.
Proz.com is getting there by their profile page and feedback from agencies which can be used to certify a certain level of translation skills.
I started translating 5 years ago using my "experience" in my native tongue and my professional knowledge and experience in biomedicine, plus my new and increasing knowledge of Spanish language and culture and of course my newly gained "certificate".
I have no new "linguistics" or "Institute of Translation" certificates. If regulation leads to having to have the highest paper qualification possible, as is happening all over the world (qualified medical doctors working as lab technicians, law graduates working in fast food outlets, etc), it will become more of a disaster than it actually is.
Proz.com is getting there with their profile (projects) page and feedback from agencies, which could be used to certify a certain level of translation skills. ▲ Collapse
| | | | df49f (X)
France
Local time: 19:10
| toilet paper and regulators | Oct 28, 2006 |
Williamson wrote:
In Europe, there is a regulatory body.
Not for the translation business, but for a lot of other aspects of our daily lives: from the butter on the bread you eat to airline traffic-control.
...and the size of the diplomas worth as much as toilet paper and the shape of my toilet seat! Precisely why I don't want the EU Commission or any commission in my country to regulate that aspect of my life too... (I mean my business life
Williamson wrote:
That regulatory body is the European Commission. It could easily issue a guideline with regard to "Quality in Translation". They have the inhouse experience. A total of 429 possible language combinations are used in the E.U.-institutions and just about every subject is dealt with.
This will be refuted by the quality of their translations, but don't we all consult their databases from time to time.
We've all seen the disastrous quality of many of their in-house translations, or heard some of their supposedly "qualified" interpreters with fancy diplomas...
and we would let THEM dictate regulations and set quality standards for OUR business???
Clients decide what kind of quality they're prepared to pay for, let's keep it that way, same diffierence as real Champagne and ersatz Sekt, you get what you pay for and you decide.
Williamson wrote:
Not only agencies bid for calls for tender. If you go through the list of the E.U.-external-translation service, there are some individuals on that list too. If they did not meet the criteria, they would not win the tender and if I am not mistaken there is a clause in the tender that if you do not deliver up to the required standards, you don't get paid.
Individuals must also show they have a "team of qualified translators": they don't need to be any more qualified than agencies are, just need to have the right people listed in their bid to pretend they are. And if they get the contract, they do the same as agencies, i.e. forget the competent colleagues and outsource in the rock-bottom rate dumps... And who, if anybody, ever checks the quality of the job delivered before issuing the check? the same bad EU in-house translators...
df
| | | | df49f (X)
France
Local time: 19:10
| surely you're kidding... | Oct 28, 2006 |
David Brown wrote:
Proz.com is getting there with their profile (projects) page and feedback from agencies, which could be used to certify a certain level of translation skills.
Proz as a global regulator and certifier of skills and competence of translators????
Surely, you must be kidding !!!
df
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| I don't think it's a case of getting regulations mixed up with qualifications.... | Oct 28, 2006 |
As you say yourself David, regulation implicitly involves assessing a person's qualifications to carry out a given profession, and I think the posts above reflect this.
| | | | Evgenia Mussuri
United States
Local time: 13:10
Member
English to Russian
+ ...
| honestly, is there any one who is suffering | Oct 28, 2006 |
from the lack of regulations in this field?
I know I am not.
| | | | | LOST IN TRANSLATION | Oct 29, 2006 |
df49f wrote: David Brown wrote:
Proz.com is getting there with their profile (projects) page and feedback from agencies, which could be used to certify a certain level of translation skills. Proz as a global regulator and certifier of skills and competence of translators???? Surely, you must be kidding !!! df
No way was I suggesting proz.com as a regulator, just that the personal profile pages supported by it can help someone choose a translator.
I think the question should have read "Should "freelance translation" be regulated?". The justification behind any idea of regulation should be for the protection of the client (end user), not a translation agency or company. Are agencies and translation companies regulated? When they are, we can then talk about translators. I know there are some agencies who are trying to achieve and use ISO standards to assure clients they are a professional company. But, as someone mentioned earlier, this is generally just paperwork requiring much more personal information than knowledge of professional abilities. Why would an agency want to know if a freelance translator holds a current driving licence or is married/single/divorced? (Yes, I have been asked!)
We are regulated, at the moment, by our clients, whether direct or through a second party.
No good, no work, no pay.
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Denmark has a dual system, which is said to be under review, but in principle gives you the best of both worlds.
If you have been to the right university and taken the right MA, you can become a State Authorised Translator and call yourself Translatoer. You may then stamp documents and declare they are true and fair translations of the attached source documents etc.
In my opinion more universities should be recognised, because in fact practically no one except Danes sl... See more Denmark has a dual system, which is said to be under review, but in principle gives you the best of both worlds.
If you have been to the right university and taken the right MA, you can become a State Authorised Translator and call yourself Translatoer. You may then stamp documents and declare they are true and fair translations of the attached source documents etc.
In my opinion more universities should be recognised, because in fact practically no one except Danes slip through the eye of the needle and foreign degrees are hardly ever recognised, no matter how well quaified and experienced the translator may be. Maybe it will happen one day.
However, anyone can set up in business as a translator, but if you do, you must call yourself an oversaetter and you may not stamp your own translations. (A State Authorised Translatoer may do it for you, if he/she has read the translation and thinks it is good enough.) So I am an oversaetter with a degree from a British university and a Danish diploma, but not THE particular MA in question, and I have several colleagues, including Danes, in the same position.
We work together and go on the same courses in Trados, terminology etc. etc. and even do translations for the Translatoers if they need a subject specialist or a native speaker of a language other than Danish... but the universities and authorities set the standards and regulate the profession. They claim to have the oldest system in the world for regulating the profession, which is perhaps why it is geared so exclusively to Danes.
The idea is that just as you can get anyone you trust to keep the accounts of your local social club and small private associations, but larger, taxpaying companies and organisations need authorised accountants and auditors, people can let anyone translate letters to their personal friends the other side of the globe, but can go to a Translatoer if they need a really qualified translation. Translatoers are properly trained; they specialise, and adhere to a code of conduct.
It means we can stand together and ask for reasonable rates and working conditions, and in theory it helps to sort the professional translators from the cowboys. If it really accepted other countries' qualifications on equal terms, it would be great, but we get along anyway. I think there are more advantages than disadvantages.
I'm just waiting to be a Chartered Linguist when the CIoL starts chartering individuals...
[Edited at 2006-10-30 11:58] ▲ Collapse
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Ruxi
German to Romanian
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| Some other aspects | Oct 31, 2006 |
I see the regulation aspect from some other angle too:
1. In many countries a certain need has raised up to authorise translators for notarial and juridical translations.
2. Some regulation should be for this profession:
a. who is allowed to be a translator (and in what fields), what skills, what credentials, what kind of education.
b. what are the atributs of a translator, of a proof-reader.
In my opinion a translator has to many atributs and his real work (of tran... See more I see the regulation aspect from some other angle too:
1. In many countries a certain need has raised up to authorise translators for notarial and juridical translations.
2. Some regulation should be for this profession:
a. who is allowed to be a translator (and in what fields), what skills, what credentials, what kind of education.
b. what are the atributs of a translator, of a proof-reader.
In my opinion a translator has to many atributs and his real work (of translating a document) has become only about 1/3 of the entire work at a document. The rest is filled with technical editing according to the wishes of the client (pictures, converting of documents, frames, decorations of the page aso), aditional papers and accounting (invoices, tax declarations aso). This rest is not being payed, first of all and not the business of a translator, but of the client itself.
c. how can one sue a translator in case of a bad translation which produced him damages, how can he find a real translator? The answer would be: a national register and to certify your translations (just like for law translations)
d. technical requirements: CAT, other software, hardware
In this field there are also some discriminations (no CAT, no job). A translator must be hired for his brain and tranlation capacities. What if you have CAT and can actually not translate?
e. to regulate it as profesion in any country also ensures some other rights: pension, medical care, social security aso. and also the financial matters (minimal prices, income levels, taxes aso.)
f. to regulate it as a profesion also would provide support and defending of the rights, like for any other profesion by a sindicate.
Talking about skills and requirement for a translator: he must know languages, certain practical fields (so education for both of them). But which school for translators gives education in: accounting, CAT, business matters of the real life, computer matters aso?
Like our Indian coleague Bala said, translation field is today still a big chaos and not an official recognaised and respected profession. Translators only do and accept everything for/from the client, but really everything, must know a lot of things. But what are his rights and who is defending them? ▲ Collapse
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